The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’ • Hacker News Board

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#71

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

throwawayfaang9 wrote: post #56

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the fault of the devs or the broken processes where management promises unrealistic deadlines up the chain, so devs have no time to think about the bigger picture and just do everything in their power to ship something that barely works at the end of each sprint and move on to putting out the next fire? To me, the fault is in the industry and how the ships are run.

I agree the problem you are describing also exists. But I think the GP here is describing when people really can’t program. Like they can only write trivial programs by copy/pasting code from stackoverflow, and they don’t understand CS at all. That is a different issue then knowledgeable devs cutting corners to meet deadlines.

If you hire inexperienced people who don't know CS and can't think critically and only copy-paste off S.O., then it's entirely on you.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#72

Post by randomdata » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #28

drewcoo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By definition, half of us are under the median. Given that no one can agree how to measure, I'd bet that most of us are.

No, don’t do that, now you’ve upset math. Or rather: I’ll mortgage my house and put my life savings on the line against that bet.

Shame about your house and life savings.

One man's brilliance is another man's "who wrote this crap?" It is indeed quite likely that most of us, possibly even all of us, will fall below the median of someone's measure.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#73

Post by swexbe » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #17

maxilevi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many HR employees do you realistically need for a company that is downsizing?

Quiteva few, actually. Downsizing does require a lot of admin work. Once the downsizing happened, well, those downsizing HR folks are the last to be downsized.

To do what exactly? Click send on the mass email?

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#74

Post by JaDogg » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #31

onion2k wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software engineers are likely going to be some of the highest paid employees, so laying off underperforming engineers is going to help reduce labor costs substantially. It might seem counter-intuitive, but often businesses lay off the high-performing-but-best-paid people because that drives the biggest savings while reducing the vanity headcount metric less, especially in companies where the effort of the team gr…

High performing people adding the most value to the business were rarely the highest paid ones as they had long tenure and the best institutional knowledge but got mediocre wage increases as a punishment for being to loyal too the business. The highest paid ones were usually the ones who job hopped the most during the times of economic boom. They added little value where they went as their tenure was too short for th…

Also it does not matter that a person is loyal, loyal ones can be fired too.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#75

Post by SirMaster » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

And over here in the Midwest, among all my friends and collogues who are software developers, I don't know a single one that was laid off.

This seems more like an issue in tech hubs or in primarily software companies.

What does it look like for all the software developers in the IT departments in non-software companies?

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#76

Post by jarym » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #21

bratao wrote: post #14

As a fellow developer who has been passionate about open-source programming since childhood, I was disgusted in this last hiring bubble how condescending and disrespectful the developers were towards other professions, which is disappointing. My general feeling was that it elevated developers to a seemingly different caste of "special" people, and here in my country (Brazil) there was advertisements everywhere about…

Don't worry, the sweet irony is hitting those condescending tech-bros now too the same way it hit the condescending crypto/stock bros who kept preaching "the market only goes up", "to the moon" and, my personal favorite which I read on HN, "developer demand is infinite". How's that infinite demand working out now tech-bros? Just ask Twitter employees. https://imgur.com/a/ZSEl44o A lot of people working in tech were d…

Same voices are heard whenever there’s a real estate bubble and wanna-be landlords come out with justifications like ‘people will always need a place to live so buying and renting will always work’

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#77

Post by scarmig » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

SirMaster wrote: post #75

And over here in the Midwest, among all my friends and collogues who are software developers, I don't know a single one that was laid off. This seems more like an issue in tech hubs or in primarily software companies. What does it look like for all the software developers in the IT departments in non-software companies?

Probably lower real wages (compared to what they'd have been otherwise) as competition heats up for those positions, as well as a tougher hiring environment for job seekers.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#78

Post by giraffe_lady » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:42 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #21

bratao wrote: post #14

As a fellow developer who has been passionate about open-source programming since childhood, I was disgusted in this last hiring bubble how condescending and disrespectful the developers were towards other professions, which is disappointing. My general feeling was that it elevated developers to a seemingly different caste of "special" people, and here in my country (Brazil) there was advertisements everywhere about…

Don't worry, the sweet irony is hitting those condescending tech-bros now too the same way it hit the condescending crypto/stock bros who kept preaching "the market only goes up", "to the moon" and, my personal favorite which I read on HN, "developer demand is infinite". How's that infinite demand working out now tech-bros? Just ask Twitter employees. https://imgur.com/a/ZSEl44o A lot of people working in tech were d…

It's also hitting just as hard the people who were humble and hard working and who learned to code because it is (or was) one of the last firmly middle class jobs you could be allowed to do without a degree or background check.

It doesn't only affect the people you don't like so I would chill on the glee, personally.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#79

Post by effingwewt » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

bratao wrote: post #14

As a fellow developer who has been passionate about open-source programming since childhood, I was disgusted in this last hiring bubble how condescending and disrespectful the developers were towards other professions, which is disappointing. My general feeling was that it elevated developers to a seemingly different caste of "special" people, and here in my country (Brazil) there was advertisements everywhere about…

History rhymes.

This whole thing was a repeat of the dotcom bubble. Back then it was 'learn web design!'

Here too we had bootcamps to learn to code in weeks. At that point the bubble was reaching critical mass.

Same damn thing happened before.

I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'.

When the cost-cutting measures and hiring freezes began I tried warning again and was told 'its not a hiring freeze at Uber, we are fine...just stopped hiring for certain departments (definition of a hiring freeze)'.

Then Twitter began the firing dominoes and here we are.

Thing is it was their company culture and management that made this happen.

Unreal perks, infantilization of the workforce, telling them how important they are, how they are changing the world, they are the 10x programmer.

I can't believe our workforce is going through this again only 20 years later. Seems housing is headed the same way.

We need protections for people, not companies. This is going to keeo happening unless we stop it.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#80

Post by naravara » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #79

bratao wrote: post #14

As a fellow developer who has been passionate about open-source programming since childhood, I was disgusted in this last hiring bubble how condescending and disrespectful the developers were towards other professions, which is disappointing. My general feeling was that it elevated developers to a seemingly different caste of "special" people, and here in my country (Brazil) there was advertisements everywhere about…

History rhymes. This whole thing was a repeat of the dotcom bubble. Back then it was 'learn web design!' Here too we had bootcamps to learn to code in weeks. At that point the bubble was reaching critical mass. Same damn thing happened before. I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. When the cost-cutting measures and hiring freezes began I tried warning again and was told 'its not…

> I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'.

Maybe if you were actually any good. I reckon at least 60% of these bootcamp alumni were just dead weight. I've interviewed so many people who "learned to code" but had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills. They could maybe understand syntax, but for the most part they just have some basic familiarity with various frameworks and tools. They don't know how any of it actually works.

Experienced developers are often mediocre communicators, so it's not even like they'd be able to explain what needs to be done clearly enough for people without problem solving skills of their own to run with the ball once its been handed to them. Developers are there for their programming skills, not pedagogical ones, so it's just not a realistic staffing model to be this way.