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Some mistakes I made as a new manager

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Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#141

Post by chrsig »

alex_lav wrote: post #82
chrsig wrote: post #18

> You upset them so deeply that they respond by unleashing the incredibly vicious-yet-perceptive tirade that they’ve been stewing on since the incident, reducing you to tears. Congratulations on hiring someone in the bottom ~2% of professionalism? At least your conscience can be clean at this point I guess. "Well your reaction was bad, so it doesn't matter what I did" This sort of discounts what the manager did to pi…

> This sort of discounts what the manager did to piss the person off I don't agree at all. Short of legitimate, open malice, this type of behavior is pretty much never warranted.

The persons reaction doesn't negate any problem with the managers behavior.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's a shortage of malice, passive aggressive, instigating behaviors that occur in the workplace that can lead up to a such reaction.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#142

Post by alex_lav »

29athrowaway wrote: post #140
alex_lav wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are just more non sequiturs though. Vague platitudes that avoid actually meaningfully discussing what you're suggesting. > It's not just an intuition, feeling or belief. It's management, not astrology. Facts aren't intuition, feeling or belief but their perception _can be_. Being late to work every day for a month _can be_ firable, or not. > If you have not met a person and "believe" they have bad performance,…

I say if your manager defames people, sue them personally for defamation. Personally, so that they personally face the consequences of their misconduct out of their own pocket. It was not that hard to understand, I am sorry you could not understand this simple thing.

More platitudes. This comment was also unnecessarily rude.

Enjoy the day.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#143

Post by alex_lav »

chrsig wrote: post #141
alex_lav wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sort of discounts what the manager did to piss the person off I don't agree at all. Short of legitimate, open malice, this type of behavior is pretty much never warranted.

The persons reaction doesn't negate any problem with the managers behavior. For what it's worth, I don't think there's a shortage of malice, passive aggressive, instigating behaviors that occur in the workplace that can lead up to a such reaction.

> The persons reaction doesn't negate any problem with the managers behavior.

Tirades immediately discredit one's point. Having a tantrum is not the path to solving workplace issues.

> For what it's worth, I don't think there's a shortage of malice, passive aggressive, instigating behaviors that occur in the workplace that can lead up to a such reaction.

If you'd actually like to move the needle on solving those issues, having a tantrum is not the path forward.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#144

Post by PeterisP »

29athrowaway wrote: post #102
throwmeaway1212 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that means direct reports/ICs can be held liable if they write harsh 360 reviews of their managers? or when they talk to other people about their manager in critical ways? You seem to hate managers, whatever experience(s) that you had must have been pretty bad, I don't think what you are proposing is an answer or makes much sense or would have any impact. I truly hope you, in time, reach a healthier place.

If you defame someone in writing, that's libel. If you can prove: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person 3) fault amounting to, at least, negligence 4) damages You can sue the person. I don't hate managers per-se. I simply hate the subset of managers that abuse their position to defame others.

Proving this is a very high bar to meet for performance reviews.

Most formal performance reviews will be on a carefully worded standard form where literally nothing the manager selects can be libel, and even for informal references, most criticism (even if unwarranted!) is not libel.

If a form asks "How satisfied are you with 29athrowaway's performance this year? " then answering "1/10" is opinion, not fact, and also likely to be true opinion. A written statement "29athrowaway has absolutely not met my expectations this year" is very difficult to be proven false, it's plausible that these expectations indeed were not met. "29athrowaway has never ever done anything right since they were born" is rhetorical hyperbole and generally not treated as libel despite being technically not true. "I think 29athrowaway should be fired" is not purporting to be fact. "29athrowaway was rude to customers three times in the last week" is extremely hard to prove as false even if it is pulled out of thin air; even if you have all the interactions recorded, there's probably something which can interpreted that way. "29athrowaway did not fulfill their tasks in project XYZ" is a tricky one (and so most formal performance review forms will never include statements worded like that, at least if they're approved by HR/legal), but depends mostly on how well documented the assignments were, and if they can somehow be stretched to assert that you performed only 99% of them, that's not really libel.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#145

Post by roenxi »

achates wrote: post #128
roenxi wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we analyse the sentiment a bit, we discover that there was no point asking for feedback - the course was already locked in and there was nothing to change. The feedback was useless. Providing feedback has some risk for employees (maybe they'll get blowback) and it is easy for a manager to "ask for feedback" as a power play because they just want to show they can ignore it. It isn't nice to ask unless the intent is…

You might not know whether the feedback is worth acting on until you get it. If I ask my friend what he thinks about a new car I'm buying and he says "I don't like the color blue" then I might ignore it. If his feedback is that the transmission on this model explodes after 10,000 miles then I'll change my decision.

You might, but if you are your friend's manager instead of just his friend then you should take the opportunity to get better at asking for feedback to do a better job of managing the relationship.

Because what a manager should take away from that is that they weren't prepared enough - they could have asked "what do you think the most important aspects of buying a car are?" first and if "color" was the answer then either not asked for feedback or asked for feedback on something that would lead to a decision being made. The question was too vague.

If you ask someone for their opinion, learn they don't like blue cars, then ignore it and buy a blue car ... you could do more to be respectful there. You don't need to do special work to respect your friend - presumably the relationship is strong and they can just walk out if they don't think the respect balance is good. But really things are better if a manager respects their reports.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#146

Post by throwmeaway1212 »

29athrowaway wrote: post #102
throwmeaway1212 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that means direct reports/ICs can be held liable if they write harsh 360 reviews of their managers? or when they talk to other people about their manager in critical ways? You seem to hate managers, whatever experience(s) that you had must have been pretty bad, I don't think what you are proposing is an answer or makes much sense or would have any impact. I truly hope you, in time, reach a healthier place.

If you defame someone in writing, that's libel. If you can prove: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person 3) fault amounting to, at least, negligence 4) damages You can sue the person. I don't hate managers per-se. I simply hate the subset of managers that abuse their position to defame others.

As soon as one person tries that then it'll just mean managers are exceedingly careful with their words, and there will be zero difference in the resulting action that comes out of perf reviews. The threat of suing won't mean you get a better pay review, it won't improve your promotion prospects, it won't stop people getting pipped or fired if needed.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#147

Post by evilduck »

azangru wrote: post #120

The article reminded me that I don't understand what managers are for :-) Especially if a manager is in fact a software engineer promoted to that role. The promotion likely occurs because a) the person is good at being a developer, and b) the manager's position is better paid than his previous one. Which combines a perverse incentive (of course anyone would like a raise) with a completely different set of responsibil…

You've never witnessed an underperforming developer? Who among a group of peers is going to deal with that?

What about conflicts and disputes? Adults can become quite childish over the smallest issues and sometimes an impartial mediator needs to step in.

And when budgets constrict, do you just draw short straws to decide who quits for the greater good or do you all volunteer to take equal pay cuts? You all openly share your salaries right? When budgets increase, do you all slice the pie equitably?

And what about a good developer not realizing their potential? Who will nudge them to take the next step and sign up to a training session or apply for a promotion in another group, or even look for new jobs because you know they've hit a ceiling here? Your teammates who rely on you are very unlikely to send you packing for your own good.

And when someone has a personal crisis, does a peer or product manager get consulted about their private issues? Bob from the API team just had their teenage son overdose on fentanyl, do you think he's going to be super talkative about needing a couple weeks off on short notice and in a state of mind to perform some transition planning?

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#148

Post by hn_go_brrrrr »

KyeRussell wrote: post #108
User23 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of a person that gave you harshly negative feedback that you then got promoted to staff or higher? And what was the feedback?

It honestly sounds like you’ve got an axe to grind in this comment. Plus, “harshly negative” is both ambiguous and loaded. Not to open up the “radical candour” can of worms too much, but there’s a difference between being honest and being a dick.

It's a fair question to ask. It's easy to be trapped by a false sense of security.

You know you're doing well, and everyone only has small improvements to suggest. Why keep digging? There's nothing bad to find. After all, you're doing well.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#149

Post by fbdab103 »

explorer83 wrote: post #69

I particularly liked the "managing the wrong amount". I hate being micromanaged. So I told myself when I could manage people that I would not micromanage them. Big mistake, some people need more of a guiding hand. One glaring missing point from this though that I would add is "don't think because you are a manager people will listen to you or respect you". You still have to earn that kind of relationship with people…

>So I told myself when I could manage people that I would not micromanage them. Big mistake, some people need more of a guiding hand.

I am fighting this same issue. I want to give as much autonomy as possible, but some are woefully ill-prepared for it. Sadly, it feels the best option is to over-manage until proven otherwise.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#150

Post by KyeRussell »

evilduck wrote: post #147
azangru wrote: post #120

The article reminded me that I don't understand what managers are for :-) Especially if a manager is in fact a software engineer promoted to that role. The promotion likely occurs because a) the person is good at being a developer, and b) the manager's position is better paid than his previous one. Which combines a perverse incentive (of course anyone would like a raise) with a completely different set of responsibil…

You've never witnessed an underperforming developer? Who among a group of peers is going to deal with that? What about conflicts and disputes? Adults can become quite childish over the smallest issues and sometimes an impartial mediator needs to step in. And when budgets constrict, do you just draw short straws to decide who quits for the greater good or do you all volunteer to take equal pay cuts? You all openly sha…

Yep. All part of the idealistic “let’s just sit together and do the code” pipe dream. Which I honestly see as part of the developer superiority complex, where somehow we don’t count as…imperfect…people.
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