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Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

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Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#71

Post by ROTMetro »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #49
falaki wrote: post #17

That "Islamic Golden Age" is a complete misnomer. It hides the religious diversity of the geography. Many don't know that it took many centuries for the majority of the population of the Iranian plateau to convert to Islam. For a good part of what is referred to as "Islamic Golden Age" Islam was not the dominant religion. Similar story applies to India. Up until 17th century, India was ruled by "muslim" rulers. Shoul…

Islamic Golden Age I find is less about attributing results to Islam, and more just a shorthand to referring to certain parts of the world currently known as "the Islamic World". And yeah the idea is that they were Islamic at that time, and maybe that's not entirely accurate, but it's not as much "this happened specifically because of Islam".

So a useless word that could be replaced by stating the geographic name of the 'certain parts of the world' referred to. Seems like an artificial name the muddies/pollutes the topic rather than enlightens. The Spanish inquisition started in 1478, Spain threw off the muslim invaders in 1492. Should we call it the Islamic Spanish Inquisition, since Islamic is such an interchangeable term?

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#72

Post by ZeroGravitas »

ybinator604g3 wrote: post #20

Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a specific religion. It's like saying Newton's work came during Christian Golden Age in Europe. The religion had nothing to do with it. In fact, there is a book [1] (in Persian) title "Two Centuries of Silence" that talks about the significant blow to Iran's culture, literature and science aft…

It's going off on a tangent, but Isaac Newton was quite intertwined with Christian religion:

> In 1667, Newton became a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge,[11] making necessary his commitment to taking Holy Orders within seven years of completing his MA, which he did the following year. He was also required to take a vow of celibacy and recognize the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newto...

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#73

Post by ROTMetro »

bsnnkv wrote: post #46

I found it interesting that despite the protests in the comments from users who appear to be Iranian, the authors of this paper, who decided on the use of the term "Islamic Golden Age", themselves both appear to be Iranian based on their names (Saatsaz = Watchmaker/Horologist) and the transcription style used (Rezaei).

It's the 'standard term used' so makes sense that it is used. The discussion here is does it make sense? I know that until I studied Persian history it very much alienated my thinking from that part of the world, and made me think of them as other. I was also taught the ignorance of christian thought of that period (referring to mainly the actions of Germanic groups) versus the superior enlightened 'Islamic Golden Age' that happened to leave out that many of those enlightened scholars were Christian and that their thinking was perfectly compatible with Christianity. It seems artificially divide and NOT do a pretty poor job accurately reflecting the people/scholars/scientific movement it is used to describe.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#74

Post by behnamoh »

erenyeager wrote: post #67
behnamoh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are correct. "Farsi" is actually the Arabic version of "Parsi" (meaning "Persian" in, well, Persian). As a Persian, I personally don't use "Farsi".

Do you also personally not use any Arabic derived words in Persian? Silly idea to try to remove Arabic influence on Persian.

Do you try to use Anglaise to refer to the English language? Bad idea to remove French influence on English.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#75

Post by wrp »

dredmorbius wrote: post #45
ybinator604g3 wrote: post #20

Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a specific religion. It's like saying Newton's work came during Christian Golden Age in Europe. The religion had nothing to do with it. In fact, there is a book [1] (in Persian) title "Two Centuries of Silence" that talks about the significant blow to Iran's culture, literature and science aft…

Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises. "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised. It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. Peter Adamson, host of the History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast and author of the book series from the same project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World" is in f…

One way around the awkwardness with "Islamic world" is to use "Near East", which is used to cover the core geographic area in pre-modern times.

If you try thinking of when was a "golden age" of the Near East, it becomes evidently a less sound idea.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#76

Post by eternalban »

erenyeager wrote: post #65
eternalban wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extent of Shah's concessions to US security concerns was allowing CIA to create monitoring stations north of Iran: listening posts. A section of the secret service in Iran (SAVAK) was specifically tasked with keeping tabs on Western intelligence in Iran. The second one, which was withdrawn after public pushback lead by Khomeini, was exempting American servicemen and workers (mostly aerospace in Isfahan) from lega…

You can’t ethically sweep the atrocities of the Shah under the rug like kashf-e-hijab, and excuse him for merely overstepping a constitution. He attacked the fabric of Iranian society and humiliated the nation for the sake of pleasing Western masters. There’s very clear reason Iran ended up the way it did, and people who have the fantasy of returning to the shah era for “women’s rights” are really not thinking logica…

Your regime has raped and keeps locked up the "fabric of Iranian society". Shah was no saint but he did not evoke perception of -evil-, which your regime fully evokes.

A taste of your evil minds is the ludicrous notion that a woman choosing to not wear a piece cloth clutched between her teeth like a bit make Iranian society "naked".

And you also you have your history wrong. It was Reza Shah* that "forced" the removal of chadors. The Shah in question here made it a personal choice. The rights mentioned were the right to work, and rights relating to marriage and children.

* some background on the history here. Reza Shah famously walked into a mosque and whipped the men [read mullahs] who had insulted his wife who had visited earlier. This 'right to insult and harrass women in public' is a "right" these men take quite seriously. They never forgave him for this offence and subsequently when they seized power, they chose a "civilized and godly" expression of their displeasure by dessecrating the remains of a dead man. And then they built a toilet over it. This is the retarded gang that currently occupies Iran. As I said, a historic blight on our nation.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#77

Post by dredmorbius »

wrp wrote: post #75
dredmorbius wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises. "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised. It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. Peter Adamson, host of the History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast and author of the book series from the same project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World" is in f…

One way around the awkwardness with "Islamic world" is to use "Near East", which is used to cover the core geographic area in pre-modern times. If you try thinking of when was a "golden age" of the Near East, it becomes evidently a less sound idea.

"Near east" suffers from the issue that it's a geographic classification rather than one encompassing both a region and a period.

It's also, of course, a relative description in that it is "near" relative to a specific presumptive geographic centre, that is, Europe.

That's not to say that the term isn't viable. But again, nuance and compromise.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#78

Post by 8note »

wahern wrote: post #70
throwaw12 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The religion had nothing to do with it. I would disagree with it. Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran, but many others), what would happen? Science would have been abolished, stopped immediately. Instead, Islam encouraged people to learn more science, even greek philosophers work was translated by hiring Christian people. On the o…

> Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran, but many others), what would happen? We don't have to imagine. A shunning of empiricism and natural philosophy is one of the reasons the Islamic Golden Age came to an end. Islam as a religion was never a monolith, and like in Christianity some movements embrace science more than others, and the…

Is it actually causational though? Or did the golden age come to an end, and the academics were ousted from power as a result?

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#79

Post by ybinator604g3 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #59
ybinator604g3 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. I watched the first 20 minutes and will watch the rest now. It's very interesting. A small note, popularity (being generally recognized) is not a good indicator of the validity of any view point and it certainly does not mean we cannot challenge them. > It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. I believe as an Iranian and a history enthusiast, what I expressed was one of those these nuances…

Adamson's work generally is excellent. I've been following the podcast for about 4--5 years now, and have worked through the entire mainline backlog (I'm now revisiting parts), though I'm still catching up on the Indian and Africana Philosophy track. Very highly recommended. "Islamic World" replaces several earlier-prevalent terms. Again, Adamson makes the case against several proposed alternatives. On which point, w…

Yes, he seems well spoken and very articulate.

While his reasoning about his world view and consequently the name of the book is sound, he is not establishing a causal relationship between religion and anything outside the realm of philosophy. He argues that this is the best common trait for philosophical work of those people in that era in the region. It's also natural that he sees everything through a philosophical lens.

> "Islamic World" replaces several earlier-prevalent terms. Again, Adamson makes the case against several proposed alternatives.

We don't have to cover it under the same _umbrella_ term. In the clip (around 11:07) he shows the slide again and says "As an American, I am a born marketer". Imagine if we were to apply the same argument with a comparable time frame (important distinction) and call him a Christian European. Maybe being good at marketing does was not one of their traits. This is the missing nuance.

Re: Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age

#80

Post by lasfter »

bsnnkv wrote: post #46

I found it interesting that despite the protests in the comments from users who appear to be Iranian, the authors of this paper, who decided on the use of the term "Islamic Golden Age", themselves both appear to be Iranian based on their names (Saatsaz = Watchmaker/Horologist) and the transcription style used (Rezaei).

The fact that the authors are still residing within Iran may also play a role in how much they attribute to Islam.
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