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Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

globalencryption.org

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Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#121

Post by hackandthink »

ugurnot wrote: post #40
hulitu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. Someone called it "Manufacturing consent". I think this name describes it pretty good. What these politicians do not seem to underestand is that those law may turn against them at a later point in time.

"Manifacturing Consent" is a book written by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky. They discuss the propaganda model of communication in much broader sense.

"Die vierte Gewalt – Wie Mehrheitsmeinung gemacht wird, auch wenn sie keine ist"

https://www.fischerverlage.de/buch/richard-david-precht-hara...

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#122

Post by csomar »

fatcat500 wrote: post #19

Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. There exists an entire subject in political science dealing with how to increase compliance with the schemes of regulators (see Nudge Theory). The mistake they make is a classic short-run vs. long-run miscalculation. In the short-run, you can get away with these kinds of tactics to increase compliance. For exam…

It’s roughly the same thing with currency. The trick is to call it modern monetary theory instead of the printing press. of course, who doesn’t want modern?

But surely it can only run so long. The problem is that most people believe that their countries can’t fall into authoritarianism because they are a democracy.

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#123

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #74
blitz_skull wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this as “The government’s role is to nudge people into what the government determines is better than the people’s natural inclination.” Did I understand that correctly? If I did, I don’t think anyone would disagree… in theory. The problem is there’s no standard way to measure and certainly no agreement on what that collective equilibrium should be. Until we figure that out—no thanks. I’ll take my naturally not…

Your point of view falls apart when crime enters the picture. Criminal law is just another form of regulation. Somehow we decided that taking cocaine is a crime. And that pedophiles are criminals. And then government tries to ensure compliance with criminal law. People generally agree that it is fit and proper for government to act, through education and other means, to ensure most people aren't criminals. You might…

> Someone spent 8 years in jail for sending lobster in an incorrect container. Not a live lobster, a dead one.

I feel this isn't a terrific example as it doesn't seem to be true.

"The notion the case was about packaging is incorrect,' [the prosecutor] said. 'Packaging was the means by which the crime was concealed. It was the mechanism to conceal the extent of overharvesting."

ref: https://web.archive.org/web/20210603000400/https://www.eenew...

US Gov's overzealous prosecution of Aaron Swartz on behalf of major publishers (and major donors) might work better. That involves creating law and the exercise of gov power, both of which were granted to the copyright interests behind influential lobbyists.

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#124

Post by jruohonen »

carimura wrote: post #46
fatcat500 wrote: post #19

Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. There exists an entire subject in political science dealing with how to increase compliance with the schemes of regulators (see Nudge Theory). The mistake they make is a classic short-run vs. long-run miscalculation. In the short-run, you can get away with these kinds of tactics to increase compliance. For exam…

Martin Gurri in The Revolt of the Public had a pretty good explanation of this. Leaders used to be the gatekeepers of information, and thus maintained control. Now the Internet has lifted the curtain and opened the floodgates of information, causing a loss of control, thus pushing many leaders to double down on attempts at controlling the narrative. When control gets too strong, we see revolts.

I too love Gurri, but I don't think this is at all what he is saying. The Internet and particularly the social media have certainly something to do with it, but to my understanding he is talking about the erosion of knowledge-creation and the collapse of "elites". (Note also that everyone in this forum probably belongs to the latter category in a way or another.) His takes correlate with those from political scientists who talk about institutional decay and such things.

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#125

Post by [deleted] »

fatcat500 wrote: post #19

Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. There exists an entire subject in political science dealing with how to increase compliance with the schemes of regulators (see Nudge Theory). The mistake they make is a classic short-run vs. long-run miscalculation. In the short-run, you can get away with these kinds of tactics to increase compliance. For exam…

[deleted]

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#126

Post by csomar »

hulitu wrote: post #31
fatcat500 wrote: post #19

Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. There exists an entire subject in political science dealing with how to increase compliance with the schemes of regulators (see Nudge Theory). The mistake they make is a classic short-run vs. long-run miscalculation. In the short-run, you can get away with these kinds of tactics to increase compliance. For exam…

> Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. Someone called it "Manufacturing consent". I think this name describes it pretty good. What these politicians do not seem to underestand is that those law may turn against them at a later point in time.

oh they understand that. They are just scheming to make sure they are on the right side. Politicians are hated all around but most of the time, they are people who are willing to take massive personal risks.

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#127

Post by BoxOfRain »

fatcat500 wrote: post #19

Interesting how our leaders see their role not as representing our interests, but in shaping our interests. There exists an entire subject in political science dealing with how to increase compliance with the schemes of regulators (see Nudge Theory). The mistake they make is a classic short-run vs. long-run miscalculation. In the short-run, you can get away with these kinds of tactics to increase compliance. For exam…

For a case study in this phenomenon the UK made use of nudge theory during the covid pandemic and I think one of the outcomes is some people distrusting the organs of state in a way they didn't before. I think people remember the 'look them in the eyes' campaign along with other 'nudges' and associate it with a time they not only felt miserable and scared but also felt taken for mugs by the very politicians who were trying to increase compliance when things like Partygate and shady government contracts to friends of ministers came to light.

I think anything that's not completely candid with the public is eventually seen as dishonest whether rightly or wrongly. Personally I think no matter how well-intended it's hard to see nudge theory as anything other than 'shady behavioural psychology tactics to induce compliance with government policy without personal consent or a democratic mandate' which is something I believe fundamentally breaks the social contract.

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#128

Post by acqq »

herbstein wrote: post #51
neo_matrix wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "Manufacturing consent" was coined by Noam Chomsky, American philosopher.

It wasn't. Noam Chomsky readily acknowledges that it was coined by Walter Lippmann in 1922's "Public Opinion".

Indeed it can be found in the book "Public Opinion" (1921) by Lippman:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6456/pg6456.txt

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#129

Post by redblacktree »

mrguyorama wrote: post #106
Animats wrote: post #29

This is worth taking up with the congressional committees looking for overreach by the Biden Administration. Fill out this form, to start. [1] https://oversight.house.gov/whistle/

If you think Republicans are against eroding privacy I have a bridge to sell you.

Indeed, the Patriot Act passed under a Republican House and Presidency. Where there was opposition, it came from Democrats in the House.[0]

[0]: https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll398.xml

Re: Statement on EU-US Cooperation on Turning Public Opinion Against Encryption

#130

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

yafbum wrote: post #96

Contrarian opinion ahead. We live in a very unique period of history - a bubble really - in which governments are not able to intercept certain communications or decrypt certain records, even with the full force of the law behind them. While I recognize and appreciate, on a personal level, the freedom that this provides me, freedom exists only to the extent that there is a government enforcing boundaries on freedom t…

This view doesn't seem to reflect the reality that Gov/LEO have access vastly more (direct and up-to-date) personal information about us than at any time in history.

I find I am not in a hurry to hand over what little space is left.

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