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Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

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Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That difference between the literal word-by-word translation [1] and the semantic translation is my point of focus. In English, my suggested translation would be that “It isn’t worth it.” But since this word-for-word translation would feel unnatural (that is, it’s typically better to introduce « la peine » even if the word trouble/pain wasn’t in the original sentence), there can be an extra cognitive load that interr…

> Quand les poules ont les dents See "As rare as hens' teeth". Similar to "as rare as rocking-horse shit". My French is far from idiomatic; I hadn't come across "quand les poules ont les dents".

The variations of the idiom's translations are definitely interesting. If you're curious to read more about the language variations, Le Figaro has a nice article about the idiom's equivalent in other languages (though they use the variant « quand les poules auront les dents »).

From Le Figaro [1]: « Précisons enfin que notre expression est un idiotisme et qu'elle ne possède pas, par conséquent, de stricts équivalents à l'étranger. Ainsi nos voisins anglais ont-ils l'habitude de dire «quand les cochons voleront», les Espagnols, de lancer «quand les grenouilles auront des poils» et les Allemands, de flanquer un «quand les poissons apprendront à voler». »

English translation: "Finally, let us specify that our expression is an idiom and that it does not, therefore, have strict equivalents abroad. Thus our English neighbors are used to saying "when the pigs fly", the Spaniards say "when the frogs have hair" and the Germans say "when the fish learn to fly."

[1] https://www.lefigaro.fr/langue-francaise/expressions-francai...

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#352
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it like it's a bad thing. This is an awesome way to provide both an extra language when kids don't have much else to do and fit it easy to pick them up, _and_ it saves on costs? What could be better?

> an extra language I learned spanish at a young age and I find it pretty useless. The last time I used it in the past 20 years was watching Casa De Papiel Really wished I learned something like German or Chinese instead

Why don't you spend a year traveling in Central and South America?

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quand les poules ont les dents See "As rare as hens' teeth". Similar to "as rare as rocking-horse shit". My French is far from idiomatic; I hadn't come across "quand les poules ont les dents".

The variations of the idiom's translations are definitely interesting. If you're curious to read more about the language variations, Le Figaro has a nice article about the idiom's equivalent in other languages (though they use the variant « quand les poules auront les dents »). From Le Figaro [1]: « Précisons enfin que notre expression est un idiotisme et qu'elle ne possède pas, par conséquent, de stricts équivalents…

Thanks; I didn't know "idiom" is "idiotisme". Nice.

The examples from Figaro all seem to have their verb as a subjunctive in French, so "When pigs would fly" - we usually say "If pigs had wings", or "Yeah, and pigs might fly". Your translations don't carry the doubt that words like "might" and "if" impart. There are hardly any/no verbs in English that still have a subjunctive distinct from the indicative, a fact that I regret.

There are some places in England (north east) where they pronounce the subjunctive of "to be", even though it isn't written distinctly; they say "If I wear a rich man". I think it's from the German, as in "Wenn ich wäre".

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#354
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be so, but if bilingualism is talking to your parents in kitchen Spanish without actually traveling anywhere, rather than learning the language of a culture that's alien to you so that you can spend an extended period of time there, is that just as enriching? Does an anglophone Canadian who learns French really expand their worldview that much? I'm not saying the answers to these questions are obvious "nos"…

> if bilingualism is talking to your parents in kitchen Spanish without actually traveling anywhere, rather than learning the language of a culture that's alien to you so that you can spend an extended period of time there, is that just as enriching? Does an anglophone Canadian who learns French really expand their worldview that much? Yes

>Does an anglophone Canadian who learns French really expand their worldview that much?

I went to high school in Ontario with anglophones who took French immersion, learned fluent conversational French, graduated high school legally credentialed a bilingual, but then proceeded to move to Toronto and never really leave the province. I don't like being judgmental about people's worldly experiences, but I don't think that those high school French classes really did much to colour their worldview, most of us just knew it as a reliable way to secure a 90+ average.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#355
post #179

I see at least one subtle advantage in being multi-lingual: distinguishing concepts more clearly. I see monolingual English speakers who confuse to/too/two, there/their/they're, etc. It's hard to blame them because these word triplets are pronounced the same, so why bother distinguishing them in writing. Knowing how these words map to different languages reinforces their distinctions. There/their/they're in Chinese a…

For people who are used to Indo-European languages, the biggest shock while learning Chinese will probably be that it's possible for a language to lack articles, plural forms, conjugation, tense, gender and case.

"I'm going to go buy three loaves of bread tomorrow morning at the bakery." -> "I tomorrow morning go bakery buy three loaf bread." The latter has no articles, tense, conjugation or plural forms, yet it's completely understandable.

Even if you learn all sorts of Indo-European languages, you'll still have a lot of assumptions about what sort of grammar a language should have that are not actually universal. Indo-European languages are quite grammatically complex.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#356
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that's not what the paper studied. This is a recurring problem with science reporting. Falsifiability and reproducibility demand that good studies focus on very specific, well-defined effects. Then it gets reported as leading to much broader conclusions on the topic as a whole. Counterintuitively, "missing the forest for the trees" is exactly what you want a study like this to do. You can let a later meta-analy…

[flagged]

Excuse me, the Haruspicy community have gone to great lengths to distance themselves from social sciences, which they consider imprecise and subject to chance.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#357
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me any German native speaker under 50 who’s not fluent in English. Language groups with small numbers of English competency is going to get you much further.

> Show me any German native speaker under 50 who’s not fluent in English. I know quite a few of them. Comes with growing up in Germany.

Perhaps make that 40.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the moving to China for a year that would increase your understanding of Chinese culture and people far more than learning Chinese by itself. Not really. Language and culture are inseparable. In my opinion, you cannot learn a language without learning at least a bit of the culture too. Idioms, expressions, and the way people use language say a lot about their culture. Apart from my own culture, I have by far t…

> HN is a good example. I see what (mostly) American people think, I like HN as much as the next critter but HN is an extremely small and biased sample of the US. The demographic is skewed towards young and liberal (even socialist at times) when the actual country is more like 50/50 liberal/conservative, to oversimplify a bit. On HN, you are also seeing comments from people who have both strong opinions and the free…

No worries. I am very aware that HN is heavily biased (actually, most places where discussion happens are biased). Also of course HN is not my only exposure to american culture (would be kinda absurd if it was though lol).

But your comment actually illustrates very well what I mean. I know it's normal for americans to call HN "socialist" and in my culture almost nobody would use that word to describe HN. Or another example is that liberal means left-leaning (like in your comment). In my culture liberal means economically liberal (no tax, no regulations), so the exact opposite of left-leaning. Those are things you have to learn in order to really understand the language. Just understanding the language by itself is not enough because the dictionary will not say that socialist or liberal actaully have a different meaning.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#359
post #349
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Dutch doesn't resemble the other languages. The fact that my proudly unpatriotic countrymen (who secretly still believe that The Netherlands is the best place in the world) will start speaking in (broken) English as soon as they pick up a trace of a foreign accent, doesn't help either.

> Except Dutch doesn't resemble the other languages. I didn't mean five or more "European dialects" I meant five or more different languages. Besides, between French and English there should be some overlap with Dutch - though I agree Dutch seems wierd on the surface:) Sticking to your broken new language in the face of "helpful English" is hard - at least with friends and co-workers you can make an agreement (all Du…

So here we've got someone who considers Romanian and Dutch dialects, while elsewhere we have someone who considers Brazilian Portugese and Portugese Portugese two languages.

I doubt you know anyone who knows five languages in your definition (and by knowing, I don't mean travelguide fluency). Such people are rare.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#360
I see two different situations for bilingualism. One is to be raised from birth speaking two languages or as an adult learn a new language.

I'd say the situation as an adult requires much more effort. The learning should help brain neuroplasticity or cause neuroplasticity? However it works.

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