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Some mistakes I made as a new manager

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Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#101

Post by marliechiller »

steveBK123 wrote: post #46

> I asked people for feedback. I found that if I just asked “do you have any feedback for me?” people often wouldn’t, but if I asked more granular questions—“was that meeting useful?”—I would usually learn a lot from it. This part is good. I think generally as engineers, a manager simply asking "do you have feedback for me" just feels like a trap. I don't know man, there's plenty of things you do that annoy me but li…

> The "strong ideas loosely held" type guys need to be careful when they become management, because while it may work with peers (if they also love arguing), it doesn't work with a power imbalance. All your "strong ideas" will become "permanently held", congrats.

As someone who loves a verbal spar and almost certainly falls into this category, this one resonates with me and I will be taking it to heart going forward. Thanks for pointing this one out!

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#102

Post by 29athrowaway »

throwmeaway1212 wrote: post #67
29athrowaway wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say it's an estimate then, it's not exact as per definition. If you are upfront regarding what assumptions were used to build the estimate, even better. It would be different if you signed something, establishing a legally binding contract to deliver something at a given date. Plus, a late delivery is not defamation. What I am talking here is condemning defamation as an accepted way of doing business.

So that means direct reports/ICs can be held liable if they write harsh 360 reviews of their managers? or when they talk to other people about their manager in critical ways? You seem to hate managers, whatever experience(s) that you had must have been pretty bad, I don't think what you are proposing is an answer or makes much sense or would have any impact. I truly hope you, in time, reach a healthier place.

If you defame someone in writing, that's libel. If you can prove:

1) a false statement purporting to be fact

2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person

3) fault amounting to, at least, negligence

4) damages

You can sue the person.

I don't hate managers per-se. I simply hate the subset of managers that abuse their position to defame others.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#103

Post by 29athrowaway »

mjr00 wrote: post #33
29athrowaway wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to the freedom of expression (i.e.: what you can communicate verbally or in writing no matter what the context). Fraud, defamation (libel, slander), perjury, etc. No matter what your position is, you are not free from the consequences of those.

This doesn't answer my question, and I didn't say anything about "freedom of expression" because it doesn't apply here. Again, do you have a documented instance of an individual manager, preferably at a company larger than ~100 people, getting personally sued after a dismissal of one of their direct reports?

Claims of defamation are often part of discrimination and wrongful termination suits.

Nowadays there are forced arbitration clauses that prevent you from suing your employer in a regular court. Instead, you have to go to a private kangaroo court where they make their own rules, often not published in advance and that can change at any time for any reason.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#104

Post by 29athrowaway »

johndhi wrote: post #37
mjr00 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, a brief refresher: lying about someone is defamation. If you defame people's performance and cause them to lose money you are personally liable for damages. Genuinely curious: do you have an example of a manager who was personally held financially liable after firing an employee? I couldn't find an example in some brief Googling, but IANAL and I'm curious if this is even a possibility. Even if it is possible,…

I am a lawyer. I guess it's technically true you (or more likely your company) can get sued if a manager lies about his reports' performance to their detriment (usually we'd call this discrimination) but the general notion that it is or should be more common is stupid.

If it happens more, there should be more litigation activity as as consequence.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#105

Post by marginalia_nu »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #100
steveBK123 wrote: post #46

> I asked people for feedback. I found that if I just asked “do you have any feedback for me?” people often wouldn’t, but if I asked more granular questions—“was that meeting useful?”—I would usually learn a lot from it. This part is good. I think generally as engineers, a manager simply asking "do you have feedback for me" just feels like a trap. I don't know man, there's plenty of things you do that annoy me but li…

I’ve learned the biggest trap of all is “tell me what you’re really thinking thinking “.

The "does this dress make me look fat" of management interaction.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#107

Post by 29athrowaway »

alex_lav wrote: post #88
29athrowaway wrote: post #8

Always remember: as a manager you are still an employee, and you are still required to observe the law. Being a manager does not mean you are correct by default. It does not mean you cannot receive feedback from your managees. Also, a brief refresher: lying about someone is defamation. If you defame people's performance and cause them to lose money you are personally liable for damages. We should sue managers more, w…

> Being a manager does not mean you are correct by default. It means the company you're working for is giving you the autonomy to decide paths forward for yourself and those that report to you. "Correct" is not binary. > Also, a brief refresher: lying about someone is defamation. If you believe something, is it a lie? If you get fired because your manager _believes_ you're bad at your job, even if you believe you are…

If you are a serious manager, you should be able to articulate your opinion regarding someone's performance in terms of qualifications, experience, role fit, hard skills, soft skills, specific situations, etc. It's not just an intuition, feeling or belief. It's management, not astrology.

If you have not met a person and "believe" they have bad performance, that's discrimination. If you make up or mischaracterize situations as a part of your evaluation, that's defamation.

Your employer has degrees of freedom with regards to setting up a path to you, sure. But that employer operates in a territory where there's legislation, which will often include defamation laws. Your employer cannot do whatever they want.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#108

Post by KyeRussell »

User23 wrote: post #91
david38 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a manager, but when I was an IC, I held your view. I learned that giving even softened feedback resulted in being at best ignored for a week, at worst, becoming a marked man. I resolved to change this for my team. Ask for feedback broadly, and about projects, not me per say. Peoples end up commenting on the project/ sprint, and they feel safer. Much of what they talk about however, I have power over, so I view i…

Can you think of a person that gave you harshly negative feedback that you then got promoted to staff or higher? And what was the feedback?

It honestly sounds like you’ve got an axe to grind in this comment. Plus, “harshly negative” is both ambiguous and loaded. Not to open up the “radical candour” can of worms too much, but there’s a difference between being honest and being a dick.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#109

Post by KyeRussell »

operatingthetan wrote: post #64
SoftTalker wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel there is an alterior motive when managers ask me these sorts of questions. Like the GP post, I'm rarely honest; I tell them what I think they want to hear. This has been learned over years where being honest resulted in the manager getting defensive, a lecture about "getting with the program" or at best an attempt to pursuade me to see it their way. Rarely have I ever had critical feedback accepted and…

I tell my team that they are my first priority and I 100% mean it. When difficult situations arise I explain to them the pressures that are on me and ask them to do their best to help, and in return I try to make their lives easier the rest of the time. Of course I play the upward game, but in my mind it's in service of the team. This has the intended effect of having a very productive and functional team that seems…

I’m a new manager. I say this too, and I mean it. I understand that the reality is that people are naturally skeptical of it, and that part of the gig is to overcome that skepticism, deliver value regardless. Part of me trying to overcome that skepticism is…writing this very comment. I don’t operate adversarial-by-default with my boss. I’m quite often quite honest, and I’ve certainly gotten value from that.

Re: Some mistakes I made as a new manager

#110

Post by sethammons »

tschellenbach wrote: post #60

I've been managing teams for 16 years, I think it's actually really beneficial to stay hands on in lead or director roles. After that it's usually not possible given the work load. It improves team alignment, you can evaluate people's work better, understand their issues better and help level them up. Some of the companies that promoted the hands-off style of management, like Twilio are currently really struggling. D…

Can you dig in more on the twilio front? Current and long term twilio employee. I've never worked where a manager also codes. Definitely not directors. That is where the tech lead comes in. As a manager, you are responsible for multiple teams. How could you even have time to code? Config changes and super small bug fixes maybe, but you can't own a story or feature as you would be a bottleneck.

How does datadog do it? How are they crushing it?

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