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I’m ready to trade in my electric car

latimes.com

251–260 of 339 posts

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#251
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample. His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost. Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutel…

> His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year. The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for ye…

Even if electricity was free, it would take 10s (if not 100s) of thousands of miles to make up for the initial price difference. But the future isn't written yet. It's entirely possible that gasoline will be $10/gallon next year and electricity may be free. In which case, it will only take 175,000 miles to break even.

Also, I think we're conflating two stories here. The first is about the SPECIFIC example of me and my brother. He bought an expensive car, I bought an inexpensive car. It's going to be at least another 300k miles before my gas expenses meet the price difference. At that point he can certainly start teasing me about how expensive my car is to operate. But I will still be able to call him a reactionary imperialist whose only interest is cheating the proletariat out of their right to travel in the HOV lane unimpeded by bourgeois singletons.

The second story is the general case, where someone who needs a car wants to compare the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs. some other random non-EV. Let's also make the other random non-EV reasonably nice because if you're bougie enough to consider a Tesla, you would NEVER be seen in a Hyundai Accent. Bing tells me the MSRP on a 2023 Camry is $27k which is DANG CLOSE to a current Tesla after you throw in government credit. But the Camry can go 500 miles on a tank of gas and if you get the long range Tesla, the price starts going up. So there is a bit of a question here about how you might use your car (I mostly only drive city-to-city and use a bus in town, like any civilized person would.) But, I think the point here is the break-even point is MUCH lower than in my case.

There's also a third story I think is a little outlandish because we're comparing frightfully expensive cars with Teslas. This is where we compare the 2022 Rolls Boat Tail at $28M to the standard Model 3 after all the price cuts Elon's been talking about lately. If you can afford a Rolls Boat Tail, you don't care about how much gas (or electrons) cost. You would probably NEVER be seen in a standard Model 3. I think you would have to get a plaid and then gold plate every surface. Or maybe palladium plate every surface because someone told you gold was passé.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#252
post #19

At the moment, ONLY Tesla has decent supercharging (i.e., fast-charging) infrastructure in the US: https://www.tesla.com/findus I regularly go on ~300-mile drives that need only a single charging stop, lasting 15-20 minutes, on my Tesla EV. By the time I've gone to the bathroom and gotten a drink, the supercharger has added 100-150+ miles of range and the EV is ready to go. All the stalls always work. No other EV bra…

My brother's new Tesla cost $76,000 more than my used Fiat 500. The fiat gets something like 26mpg in the city and 34 on the highway. If gas is $5/gal, then it's going to be 400,000 miles or so before the cost of gas equals the $76,000 price differential. (It occurs to me I didn't even factor in the cost of the electricity to pay for miles his Tesla drives.) I'm also driving a car with about half to one fourth the en…

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Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#253
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently went on a trip where the power was out at our destination for over 24 hours due to a storm. The nearest town was ~20 minutes away and likely did not have any fast charging infrastructure. Even if it did, it's a pretty bad spot to be in, especially if you have young kids. I have been considering getting an electric car but that trip made me realize I'd have to reserve the EV for urban travel only. Otherwise…

If the power is out at your destination you're unlikely to be able to operate the gas pumps either. Who brings emergency gasoline supplies with them on a family trip with young kids? The suggestion is ludicrous. Is your typical vacation, like, traveling to Florida to experience a hurricane making landfall? If you do a lot of travel to remote locations and camping and hiking and things like that, yes, an EV will proba…

> If the power is out at your destination you're unlikely to be able to operate the gas pumps either.

In areas where power outages are common, gas stations have their own generators to continue operating. This is common where I'm from, so very familiar with it.

> Who brings emergency gasoline supplies with them on a family trip with young kids? The suggestion is ludicrous.

This is very easy. I always bring a jerry can with gas (or diesel) on longer road trips, just in case. For more remote destinations (camping out in the desert/wilderness) I bring as much as four cans of diesel to be self sufficient in case plans change.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently went on a trip where the power was out at our destination for over 24 hours due to a storm. The nearest town was ~20 minutes away and likely did not have any fast charging infrastructure. Even if it did, it's a pretty bad spot to be in, especially if you have young kids. I have been considering getting an electric car but that trip made me realize I'd have to reserve the EV for urban travel only. Otherwise…

If the power is out the gas pumps aren't working either, though it's possible some fuel stations have standby generators. I have never taken extra gas along on a trip in the USA (I don't do long offroad treks or safaris, and neither do 99% of drivers). The range and charging time issue with EVs are issues regardless of weird one-off events like the power being out for a day.

> If the power is out the gas pumps aren't working either, though it's possible some fuel stations have standby generators.

Gas stations tend to have generators, yes.

> I have never taken extra gas along on a trip in the USA

Well, to counter your anectode, I have never taken a road trip more than 300 miles in the USA without carrying a jerry can (or more) of fuel, just in case. It's cheap and easy insurance, why wouldn't you? Even if you don't need it you can use it later, so it costs nothing.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#255
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently went on a trip where the power was out at our destination for over 24 hours due to a storm. The nearest town was ~20 minutes away and likely did not have any fast charging infrastructure. Even if it did, it's a pretty bad spot to be in, especially if you have young kids. I have been considering getting an electric car but that trip made me realize I'd have to reserve the EV for urban travel only. Otherwise…

I don’t know that it’s wildly impractical. Some people carry battery-powered emergency jump starters for their ICE car. This just seems like the reciprocal backup power solution. Carrying a generator seems very practical to me if you are putting yourself in situations where it could be not just useful but the difference between you being stranded vs self-sufficient. Nobody said that owning an electric vehicle require…

> Carrying a generator seems very practical to me if you are putting yourself in situations where it could be not just useful but the difference between you being stranded vs self-sufficient.

Charging an EV from a portable generator is going to take 8-12+ hours. So now you need to carry enough extra fuel for the generator to run that long.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#256
post #19

At the moment, ONLY Tesla has decent supercharging (i.e., fast-charging) infrastructure in the US: https://www.tesla.com/findus I regularly go on ~300-mile drives that need only a single charging stop, lasting 15-20 minutes, on my Tesla EV. By the time I've gone to the bathroom and gotten a drink, the supercharger has added 100-150+ miles of range and the EV is ready to go. All the stalls always work. No other EV bra…

I am not sure when the car industry reaches that iteration where you can swap out batteries. It already happened for the electric rollers and it is freakin amazing. I think many of the electric car skeptics would convert if there was a way to "re-charge" the car within 5-10 minutes. The batteries would be also happier.

Since the battery is one of the biggest expenses to replace when it no longer holds charge, the economics of it would be tricky. Nobody would want to swap their good battery that they've carefully looked after for one that holds much less charge. Not to say that it's not possible to solve, but it's not so straight forward.

Also, I've used lots of chargers greater than 100 kw, and they really don't take that long to charge a car. Combine it with a meal, even a fast food meal and they've generally charged more than I needed in that time anyway.

Fast charging is an outlier anyway. >90% of the time you slow charge at home for a third of the price per mile, and it's lovely to only need to visit a filling station on rare long drives.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#257
post #19

At the moment, ONLY Tesla has decent supercharging (i.e., fast-charging) infrastructure in the US: https://www.tesla.com/findus I regularly go on ~300-mile drives that need only a single charging stop, lasting 15-20 minutes, on my Tesla EV. By the time I've gone to the bathroom and gotten a drink, the supercharger has added 100-150+ miles of range and the EV is ready to go. All the stalls always work. No other EV bra…

> I charge at home for around 1/3 the cost per mile compared to filling a comparable ICE vehicle with a poisonous combustible liquid. Tesla batteries are filled with poisonous combustible electrolyte. The cost of batteries easily dwarfs the fuel cost savings with appropriate discount rate. And the electricity probably comes from coal or low efficiency nat gas turbine.

I wonder whether autogas (LPG) systems are the cleanest alternative as of now. Until recently the main problem with sequential autogas was sudden explosions of cars with faulty units. Did it get safer as well?

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the author for one. "The government is finally getting round to the basics and will probably fuck it up" is not the attitude that put men on the moon.

The author is the editorial page editor at the local newspaper. You expect them to install more plugs? I don’t think that makes sense.

I expect them, as a journalist, to mention how far behind America is, not write the EV equivalent of The Onion's:

'No Way to Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People with gas cars have range anxiety, too, and you need to be strategic about placement of gas stations to ensure that they don't get stuck in a place where they can't charge. Right? But I can’t buy 5x20l canisters and fill them up with x kWh of electricity. I can to that with diesel or gasoline.

You could get another battery for long trips. And the bobcat to lift it into the car with.

Aha, 2770kg for a jcb bobcat and roughly 550kg for a battery pack. Let me guess - on a trailer? What would towing that do to the range on the first battery pack? Or are you being sarcastic?

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#260
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and to those who might think "hey 90% isn't so bad". Imagine a light switch or sink faucet working "90% of the time". Or the gas pump working "90% of the time", knowing that there are no other pumps in a 30 mile radius.

So charge before you are down to 30 miles?

The point is that 90% is not good when the alternative is 99.99%.

For gas stations, 99.99% of the time the pump works. So much so that I don’t even consider that it doesn’t work. That’s the level of reliability that I expect.

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