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I’m ready to trade in my electric car

latimes.com

221–230 of 339 posts

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#221
post #96

Yes, electric cars are not viable unless you can charge at home. Meaning, in your garage / driveway. This means they're not that useful for people who live in apartments, and most people who live in a city like SF and park on the street(*). They're also not viable for road trips. Teslas can make it work but you still have to be willing for your trip to take 20 - 30% longer than it would with a gas car. For people who…

I do have a home charger, but I also take more road trips in the Tesla than I do in my ICE car because the Tesla is more comfortable. The Tesla is quieter, the seats are better, and with occasional use of autopilot I can stretch my arms and legs while driving. In addition, if I get sleepy I just pull over and take a nap in the back (Model Y here) in air-conditioned comfort. Can't do that in an ICE car without running…

I love that. I want to buy a Tesla now, you should get into advertising :)

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#222

> That means mapping out charging stations in a comprehensive, thoughtful way … not leaving it to the whims of the commercial sector, … It will require cities to develop plans for how and where to locate public chargers I spoke at public hearing last year in favor of an EV ordinance that my city passed. I believe that if we are to involve government with EV adoption, which is necessary, we need to be prepared for bac…

A thing to think about is: Do we in fact need top-down government mandates to do this? People with gas cars have range anxiety, too, and you need to be strategic about placement of gas stations to ensure that they don't get stuck in a place where they can't charge. And yet... this turns out to be a problem that largely solved itself without a centralizing authority, because "people want to buy gas/electricity for the…

Good point. As it is right now, chargers would probably have to be much closer to each other than gas stations. Until we get denser batteries.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing to think about is: Do we in fact need top-down government mandates to do this? People with gas cars have range anxiety, too, and you need to be strategic about placement of gas stations to ensure that they don't get stuck in a place where they can't charge. And yet... this turns out to be a problem that largely solved itself without a centralizing authority, because "people want to buy gas/electricity for the…

> People with gas cars have range anxiety, too, and you need to be strategic about placement of gas stations to ensure that they don't get stuck in a place where they can't charge. Right? But I can’t buy 5x20l canisters and fill them up with x kWh of electricity. I can to that with diesel or gasoline.

You could get another battery for long trips. And the bobcat to lift it into the car with.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your brother didn't need to spend >$76,000 more than you did on a Tesla. I see used Tesla's in my area for sale <$30k.

Except that the Tesla he wanted at the time he wanted to purchase it was $76,000 more than my Fiat. The existence of $30k Teslas at other points in spacetime do not change that fact. If we rework the example with a $30k Tesla, that's still $26k more than my used car, which brings the break-even point down to about 150,000 miles (if you assume electricity going into the EV is without cost) or somewhere around 225,000…

But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample.

His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost.

Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutely falling apart and Veyrons aren't the most useful yardsticks of car pricing. I definitely understand the $4k used unicorn, I drove one for years. But IME the vast majority of $4k cars are priced that low for a reason.

I can find a used Bolt for ~$20k pretty easy. Most decent used gas cars are probably going to be around $10-14k. Let's say $10k price difference. At $3.50/gal, 25mpg, 12,000mi/yr, that's $1,680 in gas. At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh, same mileage that's $330. $1,350/yr cheaper, so from energy cost differences that's a seven and a half year break even on 10k difference. If your ICE was $14k, that's only four and a half years.

And that Bolt probably just got a brand new battery from the recall, meaning it'll probably last at least a decade (probably more) without any major maintenance issues. Meanwhile that $10k ICE probably needs a new timing belt soon, probably has some aging motor mounts, and maybe it isn't always shifting into third gear very well.

I'm definitely not telling you to throw away your $4k unicorn. It's good you're getting a lot of life in it. I'm just suggesting that acting like EVs cost $80k and ICE cars cost $4k is stretching those markets to the point where it's pretty unrealistic to most buyers.

Also, that point about batteries spontaneously igniting, I've seen neighbors houses burn down from ICE cars spontaneously igniting. I see gas cars burning on the highways pretty regularly. I've had cars have recalls telling me to park outside. Gas cars catch on fire all the damn time.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#225

Yes same happened to me. After about 3 years I went back to a gas car. After the vanity / hobby enthusiasm diminishes, charging and the current limitations become just very frustrating to deal with every day. To be fair I made the frustrating experience mostly in non-Tesla cars. However, Tesla has other things that can be frustrating.

I know many people with lifestyles that would totally fit the charge-at-home approach which eliminates almost all of the problems. But that means real estate has to be cheaper so you can afford the "driveway". And you need a car sharing culture to deal with road trips, etc. where you need a longer range that one time a year. Again, talking about a good chunk of people, not necessarily yourself.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite happy with my PHEV. I charge at night at home, and have even gone a whole month without needing to get gasoline (in town driving only). But when I need to drive a long distance, it's a complete non-issue to find a gas station after 550 miles.

>have even gone a whole month without needing to get gasoline Every time I consider getting a plug-in hybrid, I'm reminded that they're not for me. Even with daily commuting, I only fill my 12gal tank 10 times annually. I've put, at most, $8000 of gas into my car in the last decade. I want the geeky toy, but it's just not sensible. If I want to make 50mpg instead of 35, I just have to drive carefully and draft behind…

It's hard to do but I'd love to see some kind of calculator that takes that all into account to figure out one's co2 emission.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#227
post #191
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an early adopter, the benefit of less maintenance, home "refueling", and the fact that an EV is more fun to drive offsets the hassle. We've done a few road trips in it, and while road trip charging is annoying (we have a VW ID4, so the CCS network) its still worth dealing with because we enjoy the EV. Personally I think right now EVs are a great second car for almost everyone because you get the benefits of an EV…

That's the thing about cars: their real test (or importance) is not the 90% of the time spent in the "happy path" (short, planned drives after a full night charge). It's to address those edge but critical cases - long trips, unexpected drives, off-the-beaten-path routes. Another thing rarely raised is the correlated nature of traffic issues. Charging is fine now, mostly because it seems there is a huge over-provision…

What is the easy solution for ICEVs?

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#228
post #67

A) Live in a place where you can charge at home B) How often do we really go "road tripping around the state"? Rent a car for these trips...

A) 50% of EU citizens lives in apartment B) When ICE cars are banned, then what? Get a horse?

I expect that by the time ICE cards are banned it will no longer be a problem.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#229

How about we just give up the very American concept of “road trip”? It’s bad for the environment, bad for your health, dangerous, and increases the burden on the already overloaded highway system. If you want to visit somewhere farther than your EV can take you, ride a bus, plane, or train. When you arrive, try walking, biking or ride-sharing apps to get around.

The current automobile system of highways, roads, parking, garages, gas stations, and car industry is a culmination of decades of investment. It will take that long to build national high speed rail, intra-city public transportation that doesn’t suck, zoning that doesn’t require sprawl, and pedestrian and bike infrastructure in every town.

US government policy has made driving easy and alternatives hard. We are in a very deep hole with respect to automobile dependency.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#230

This to me is still the weak link. It’s not just chargers, it’s 30+ minute charge time. As great as electric is, an extra hour in the car on a road-trip with 3 kids is a tough sell. More chargers would help but it’s really battery tech and charge times that need a few more innovations before I’d consider for a car I might take a road trip in.

I made 4 3000km trips in a Tesla with young children. (Ottawa to Saskatoon and back, twice). The battery lasts longer than a child's bladder, and a restroom stop with young children requires at least 20 minutes, enough time for a substantial charge. Only twice in the four trips did we ever have to wait for the car to finish charging. IOW it added 15 minutes to a 3 day trip.

That’s been my EV road trip experience too; the car is pretty much always ready before you are. People under-estimate how long they actually spend stationary by the time everyone goes to the bathroom, gets a snack and stretches their legs.
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