Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate • Hacker News Board

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#321

Post by tombert » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:45 AM UTC

stainablesteel wrote: post #319

tombert wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a pretty stupid argument; I think this is an idiotic law, and I would even if I did agree with the bizarre LGBT grooming conspiracies. It’s poorly worded, likely to be abused, and also not just K-3 anymore like people keep incorrectly asserting. Even if I did think that there was some grooming conspiracy, I wouldn’t want to teach in Florida because I don’t want to be sued by some parent who has a rela…

that's not exactly steel manning what i said, a lot of the modern lgbt craze is crossing religious boundaries, i don't want my kids to be taught anyone else's religion, i'm supposed to have this right granted to me and my kids under law people who like what's going on in florida will move to florida, its a win-win

It's actually not a win-win, because even if I agreed with your beliefs about the "lgbt craze", I wouldn't move to Florida. The law is so vaguely worded, and the plaintiffs in these lawsuits have virtually zero consequence for lying.

Most parents are probably fine (liberal or conservative), but it only takes one dishonest parent to make a teacher's life very unpleasant. I suspect a lot of teachers see the writing on the wall and are getting the hell out of Florida.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#322

Post by stainablesteel » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #321

stainablesteel wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not exactly steel manning what i said, a lot of the modern lgbt craze is crossing religious boundaries, i don't want my kids to be taught anyone else's religion, i'm supposed to have this right granted to me and my kids under law people who like what's going on in florida will move to florida, its a win-win

It's actually not a win-win, because even if I agreed with your beliefs about the "lgbt craze", I wouldn't move to Florida. The law is so vaguely worded, and the plaintiffs in these lawsuits have virtually zero consequence for lying . Most parents are probably fine (liberal or conservative), but it only takes one dishonest parent to make a teacher's life very unpleasant. I suspect a lot of teachers see the writing on…

the same can be said about a lot of communities and it has more to do with crime and violence than about gender opinions, there's tons of people who get off with lying everywhere, i think you're fooling yourself into believing florida is somehow special. there's probably been more florida on your feed lately in order to get people to be anti-desantis, it a real thing

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#323

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 3:06 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #242

nostrademons wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to see how this benefits Texas , though. Education is an investment in the future; encouraging the best professors to go elsewhere is like saying you want the future to happen elsewhere. Maybe that's what Texas wants, but universities usually bring startups and high-tech jobs along with them. It kinda reminds me of how Texas wanted to get in on the blockchain hype, so they passed legislation making it extr…

How does Texas's research output affect its ability to pull in top professionals from elsewhere ? The mid-west has amazing public STEM schools in UMich, Wisc, UIUC, Purdue....and yet their economic centers are in free fall. On the other hand, none of Texas's top cities had a top public school (Houston, Dallas, San Antonio) and they got by just fine. Austin's rise fairly recent. If anything, the sad state of local eco…

There's a flywheel effect to academic research where good professors -> interesting discoveries -> grad students spin out and start companies -> economic growth -> good jobs -> halo effect for university -> more students, more budget -> better professors. That's how Stanford, MIT, and Harvard got to be so dominant. They spawned a whole ecosystem of startups and tech companies around them.

"Good professors" is a necessary but not sufficient condition to getting this flywheel going. You also need public/private partnerships to commercialize discoveries; a reasonably attractive urban area that'll keep students there; availability of venture capital; and a fair bit of luck with the initial batch of startups. But if you don't have decent teaching & research programs you're taking yourself out of the running entirely.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#324

Post by tombert » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

stainablesteel wrote: post #322

tombert wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not a win-win, because even if I agreed with your beliefs about the "lgbt craze", I wouldn't move to Florida. The law is so vaguely worded, and the plaintiffs in these lawsuits have virtually zero consequence for lying . Most parents are probably fine (liberal or conservative), but it only takes one dishonest parent to make a teacher's life very unpleasant. I suspect a lot of teachers see the writing on…

the same can be said about a lot of communities and it has more to do with crime and violence than about gender opinions, there's tons of people who get off with lying everywhere, i think you're fooling yourself into believing florida is somehow special. there's probably been more florida on your feed lately in order to get people to be anti-desantis, it a real thing

Those communities don’t have a special law tailor-made to make it is easier and risk-free to sue.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#325

Post by romwell » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 12:20 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #251

romwell wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You could definitely sustain (1a) without the incentive (or carrot) of tenure. This is how most community colleges work. Spoiler: this is how most universities work. They have teaching jobs that are either filled with adjuncts, or are contract-based; or pay such small salaries that tenure is the only thing that would attract anyone to work them.

You’re missing my point. Universities that also do research cannot be sustained completely by adjuncts and teaching professors. Also, a portion of adjunct and contract-based positions are filled by those seeking a tenure track position. Removing tenure will affect this side as well.

No, I'm not missing your point - I agree with it. My comment was meant to point that that to the extent that tenure could be gutted from research universities, it has already been done so.

Gutting it further would bring immediate ruin.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#326

Post by petsfed » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #201

petsfed wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked retail for 2 years after completing a master's in condensed matter and transistor physics. It just happened to be during a time (~2014) when that degree alone was insufficient in getting me a job, even an entry-level one. I think barring student loans is part of the strategy. Also, focusing on financial literacy prior to high school graduation. If we must have student loans, then colleges need to publish dat…

Speaking to your situation - I've come to think that degree programs that only "pay off" after a certain level is obtained (masters, phd, credential, license, etc) - then there should not be an option to get out of the program until it's completed. By that I mean eliminating the intermediary and largely useless degrees. You would instead enter into the Condensed Matter Program, which at the end awards a phd, and noth…

The problem is that sometimes, you aren't really cut out for the PhD. Or the program burns you out. What then? What if you and your advisor have such severe conflicts that a PhD (or whatever) is not really feasible? What if your advisor just decides one day that they're not going to help any of their students become part of the community of minds, so all you have at the end of all this is a piece of paper and no meaningful contacts to get a job? In my case, I was still clinging to this idea that I could be a college professor, and it wasn't until I got the chance to exit with a masters that I started to accept that I wasn't cut out for it.

The problem is not that people end up with "useless" degrees - it's a rare day indeed that I do something even vaguely related to what I went to school for. The problem is that we as a society are addicted to blaming 18-24 years olds for not being perfect fucking fortune tellers when it comes to choosing a profession for the next 20 years, with an absolute minimum of data or tools to collect or evaluate that data. The problem is that we as a society say "you specialized in creating and operating specialized widget 'A', but while you were studying for that, the market shifted and now we only want specialized widget 'B', and the consequences of that market shift are completely and solely your burden to bear".

All of this to say that no matter how up-front we are about what the end of these long programs is, we are still, STILL asking people to make the right long-term decision, while insisting that they are also too young to rent a car because they won't make the right long-term decisions. "You're too young to buy alcohol, as you might make the wrong decision which could lead to an outcome that will haunt you for decades. Also, pick your career, right now. Delaying this decision will definitely cost you thousands of dollars, waste years of your life, and disrupt your social development (but picking wrong will have the same impacts, but magnified). It may bar you from certain housing situations. No, we won't help you meaningfully engage with the question, or help you understand the right questions to ask. You're an adult now, no one is going to hold your hand, take responsibility for yourself!".