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Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

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Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#131

It's okay; software engineering isn't real either. (In many countries, the word "engineer" is regulated -- you can't call yourself an engineer without professional qualifications and oversight.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_...

Yeah, pretty much this. Only a subset of the actual activity that falls under the umbrella of "software engineering" could be called engineering in the traditional sense. The engineers working on aviation software and other low-level, real-time, performance critical systems probably need to use quite a bit of maths and are closest to doing what we traditionally consider engineering. All those teams working on web app…

I refer to myself as a software developer, but also intensely dislike the gatekeeping around the term “engineer”.

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#133
post #9

Think of it more as "prompt-fu", akin to "google-fu"--or how to google. You do have to know how to talk to an LLM, and it will be important. But it's not so much engineering, as we come to think of it in software traditionally. I wouldn't get hung up on the name, but just see it for what it is--a bad name for something we'll need to learn to be effective. It won't go away entirely, but will be mitigated to be less im…

LLMs are very quirky. They need the correct context to produce something good and it’s often surprising what that needed context is. OP just play around with midjourney and you’ll soon realize that it is a very real thing

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#134
post #25

Is this just about gatekeeping the word 'engineer', so that its purity isn't tarnished? I know that software engineers were scoffed at by electrical engineers, who I bet were scoffed at by mechanical engineers, who were probably scoffed at by, you know, people who built siege engines or whatever. Is prompt engineering 'real' engineering? It seems easy enough to test whether knowledgeable, self-proclaimed prompt engin…

IMHO - software engineering really isn't real engineering. Not in the traditional sense. But it certainly is based on knowing the inner workings of all or as many and as much of the abstraction layers. But who's a prompt engineer? Is anyone who understands how Tensors and Transformers work is a prompt engineer? Are prompt engineers model specific? I'm GPT-3.5 prompt engineer and we have a job openings for Alpca or St…

> software engineering really isn't real engineering

Most people who call themselves software engineers have not studied engineering at all, let alone passed an engineering course.

I think there are two broad classes of benefit a real SE can provide.

The first is an understanding of how software can be proven correct, and the limitations of that vis-a-vis the real world - power failures, etc. They can help understand what portion of the software needs what level of performance, understandability, correctness, etc. Your core trade-pricing engine's needs are different than the webserver showing the status pages - both are required but the standards for both are not the same.

Second is an ability (and this is what apprenticing and is for in a real engineering career) to judge and design entire systems. We "devs" often get treated as fungible work units and tasked with various little subsystems. A professional engineer entering such a space would be required to obtain a pretty good understanding of the entirety of the company's systems and very good of what they integrate with, such that they can characterize the cost, risk, etc, of the solution space before even beginning to plan the technical solution. Engineers often tell clients that they've envisioned the wrong solution. They're trained to break down silos and integrate solutions where possible. (Not that they all succeed, but that's in the training.)

> if these LLMs are so intelligent and have so much deeper understanding as their emergent capability - why is prompt engineering needed in the first place?

Because they're language models and people are trying to solve things that aren't pure language problems with them. So you need to map the problem to something it can represent and where a solution can be formed, even if that solution may not use an LLM call. A simple example is taking a mathematical word problem and solving it. Currently the LLMs do not model math well so you'd use the LLM to separate out the clauses of the problem and turn it into variables and write an equation from it and then you'd evaluate that snippet of code for the real answer.

And then, depending on what part of what system this was, you may need to verify the parsing and other parts of the pipeline so you would need to build a chain where the results from one call are handed to other systems, maybe just back to the same LLM, with a bunch of examples, for multiple instances of more detailed checking, and then if those answers aren't the same, to another round where it tries to explain the difference and feeds that explanation into a round where you try to reprompt the initial layer and try again. Token limits often constrain how good the instructions and examples can be so you often have a few levels of prompts, nearly bulletproof ones, and shorter ones which are cheaper and allow other use of the token budget but may have more failure cases.

Building with non-deterministic tools isn't impossible, all ropes are different and yet we have rope bridges, but you have to know how they work and how they fail.

> But who's a prompt engineer? [If] I'm a GPT-3.5 prompt engineer do we need to have a job openings for Alpca or StableML prompt engineers?

No, just like architects learning different materials during their career. But all those LLMs are different and you need to experiment (scientifically) to find their characteristics in your area before building on them.

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much this. Only a subset of the actual activity that falls under the umbrella of "software engineering" could be called engineering in the traditional sense. The engineers working on aviation software and other low-level, real-time, performance critical systems probably need to use quite a bit of maths and are closest to doing what we traditionally consider engineering. All those teams working on web app…

I refer to myself as a software developer, but also intensely dislike the gatekeeping around the term “engineer”.

It's only after these works that I've found "engineering" is worth a little gatekeeping:

  * The New Plague
  * Have Fun at Work
  * Friends in High Places
  * Design for Prevention
In short, some cynicism is warranted, but not complete and utter disillusionment.

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#136
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally do not think Software engineering is a thing. There are opinions on how to structure Software even within same language and framework and there's little objective procedure to rate one way better that the other and there's one, that kind of performance gains usually are negligible. But prompt engineering? Based on what knowledge exactly?

Software engineering is definitely a thing. There are numerous ways to code robustly and to prove the software will do what it's supposed to. They're much used in mission-critical applications where failure is a Very Bad Thing. But most developers do none of these things, and many developers don't even know they exist. But prompt engineering is just search++. You might save some time if you know a little about the un…

> But most developers do none of these things

When they should, failure cost time/money

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#137

It's okay; software engineering isn't real either. (In many countries, the word "engineer" is regulated -- you can't call yourself an engineer without professional qualifications and oversight.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_...

That doesn't make much sense at all. This is not like being a lawyer or a doctor where the meaning is "you've completed a degree". The term "engineer" is meaningless. It's more like being a writer or a musician. There is no objective criteria to fulfill.

Furthermore, I don't understand why some people have the need to regulate everything. That's not how the real world works.

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much this. Only a subset of the actual activity that falls under the umbrella of "software engineering" could be called engineering in the traditional sense. The engineers working on aviation software and other low-level, real-time, performance critical systems probably need to use quite a bit of maths and are closest to doing what we traditionally consider engineering. All those teams working on web app…

I refer to myself as a software developer, but also intensely dislike the gatekeeping around the term “engineer”.

I call myself a programmer. Nothing more, nothing less. While I don't necessarily go out of my way to gatekeep, I find 'engineer' pretty cringy, and 'architect' makes my eyes roll out of my head.

What's next, Software Physician?

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#139
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a country charging fees to bless a word makes a profession more or less real.

You should rethink that whenever you drive under a bridge or get on a boat. The reason they collapse or sink so infrequently is largely because engineers are accredited and held responsible.

Whoever built the old bridges in my city is lost to history. There was probably no regulation then, and yet, they haven't collapsed.

Re: Ask HN: Is prompt engineering just snake oil?

#140
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I can list counter examples for each. Civil engineers and architects don’t “move fast and break things” or “fake it til you make it” after a 3 month bootcamp.

There are software engineering domains, like aerospace, where the process is very stringent with rigorous planning and testing. There are others, like consumer app development, where there's simply no need for that kind of process, so it doesn't exist. HNers might complain, but average people don't care if their social media app crashes once in a while and they have to restart it — so why should developers care? Bett…

Completely agree. It reminds me of 'They Write the Right Stuff' (1996) [1], how a group of engineers developed the software for the Space Shuttle.

[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

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