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Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
21–30 of 149 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is a node in this context and what does designing a new node entail? Does this design process mean TSMC can do something with ASML machines that another company with the same machine couldn't do?
The important thing to understand is that at the level of chip manufacturing, you’re doing advanced materials science. These aren’t just abstract logic gates and structures built out of them, such as SRAMs. At the manufacturing level, the logic gates are nano-scale 3D structures made of different materials and in different shapes. For example, at this scale, the shape of the transistor gates has a big effect on perfo…
I like you 3d printing reference. You can have 2 people with the same printer trying to print the same part. What else goes into getting a good part? Proper bed leveling, bed heating, choice of material, part cooler, nozzle temperature, feed rate, speed, acceleration, layer thickness, infill pattern, and many other settings and choices. And that's just an off the shelf printer melting plastic...
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#23[flagged]
Thanks ChatGPT
These ChatGPT reply bots are actually kind of useful to remind one of what a limited perspective these generic AI models can offer without prompt engineering.
Compare this answer to the one given by Nokinside. It’s much more like storytelling, highlighting the possibility of failure lurking behind every process node success. The ChatGPT one is basically just a string of meaningless fluff words like “competitive edge” and “pushing the boundaries”.
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#24Don't underestimate the psychological effects underlying vendors' convergence on TSMC
It's like an extreme version of "nobody got fired for going with IBM"
Decision makers, even and sometimes especially in groups are not always rational. There are many cognitive biases that might make going against TSMC too difficult to justify
Also historically they have been the only option for __nm manufacturing, although transistor size is beginning to become irrelevant <10nm with different tricks having more of an impact on performance and efficiency
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks ChatGPT
These ChatGPT reply bots are actually kind of useful to remind one of what a limited perspective these generic AI models can offer without prompt engineering. Compare this answer to the one given by Nokinside. It’s much more like storytelling, highlighting the possibility of failure lurking behind every process node success. The ChatGPT one is basically just a string of meaningless fluff words like “competitive edge”…
Why does every ChatGPT answer sound like it's just about to say "buy my ebook, 10 Secrets of SEO and Social Media Marketing"
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is a node in this context and what does designing a new node entail? Does this design process mean TSMC can do something with ASML machines that another company with the same machine couldn't do?
The important thing to understand is that at the level of chip manufacturing, you’re doing advanced materials science. These aren’t just abstract logic gates and structures built out of them, such as SRAMs. At the manufacturing level, the logic gates are nano-scale 3D structures made of different materials and in different shapes. For example, at this scale, the shape of the transistor gates has a big effect on perfo…
It's also important to note how crazy the ASML EUV machines are, they each take a megawatt of power to produce about 100 watts of EUV. The infrastructure just to run these machines is staggering. TSMC uses about 5% of Taiwans total power I believe.
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#27The short answer is during a time of massive profits of semi companies, most cashed out. One (TSMC) has kept reinvesting gains into R&D for the last 20 years. Lithography via ASML is the cutting edge advance, but there are many other small details too. Both in the technology itself but also in the complexity of integrating that technology to work together in one process.
I think that one of the greatest advantages that Korean, Chinese, and Taiwanese companies have is that most of them seem to be somewhat immune to Harvard Business School ideas, and Jack Welch was never worshipped as he was in the West. Keeping the bean counters under leash is good for building long-term value.
That theory fails to account for Japan's failed semiconductor industry.
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#28TSMC isn't competitive. That's a misconception. Back in the days Intel was ahead and by a huge margin. TSMC go by the slow and steady model. Intel made mistakes and lost its gain and here we are today. Intel has always been a lot more aggressive and risk taken. They might catch up again. It's just a long process. As to Samsung etc they were never really in the game. They only got remotely competitive by heavy poachin…
I'm not sure I understand how they're not competitive. Staying steady while your opponent is making mistakes is, in fact, a competitive strategy — straight out of Aesop's Fables. Intel doesn't get to be the "competitive" one just because they're playing the role of the Hare.
Your example of Hare suggests Intel was sleeping. I don't think they were.
And no, TSMC is staying steady no matter what. That's how they've been operating from the start - regardless of if the "opponent" is making mistakes. It's not a strategy in that sense where they're competing. They're doing their own thing and the competitors either died by themselves or failed.
They're not competitive as in they aren't competing with Intel. Otherwise they'd go for counter measures or what not. That's never been their strategy. Cutting edge wasn't their core business originally.
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
The important thing to understand is that at the level of chip manufacturing, you’re doing advanced materials science. These aren’t just abstract logic gates and structures built out of them, such as SRAMs. At the manufacturing level, the logic gates are nano-scale 3D structures made of different materials and in different shapes. For example, at this scale, the shape of the transistor gates has a big effect on perfo…
I like you 3d printing reference. You can have 2 people with the same printer trying to print the same part. What else goes into getting a good part? Proper bed leveling, bed heating, choice of material, part cooler, nozzle temperature, feed rate, speed, acceleration, layer thickness, infill pattern, and many other settings and choices. And that's just an off the shelf printer melting plastic...
Ya this analogy really clicked with me. To really torture the analogy, Apple or any other TSMC customers hands them an .obj of their chip, and TSMC acts as the slicer and converts that into the GCode that ASML’s “printers” understand. And just like how some slicers have better overhang and infill algorithms TSMC has their own secret sauce for telling the ASML machines what to “print”.
Does that expansion of the analogy work or did I just move the analogy further from the truth?
Re: Ask HN: Why is TSMC so competitive in semiconductor fabrication?
#30Because they took upon a very hard task, and kept punching it year, after years, through, low margins, highly cyclical market, extremely low returns on capital, tricky clients, and a marathon like RnD expenditures.
They are the leader because everybody else dropped out, and went to make money on something easier, like making Wordpress websites.