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Physicists discover that gravity can create light

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Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The preprint of the paper that is the subject of the (not so great) phys.org article at the top is https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.08767 >. An accessible HTML5 version is available at https://ar5iv.org/abs/2205.08767 > (arxiv->ar5iv, the latter expands to a link within ar5iv.labs.arxiv.org). Hawking radiation is a semiclassical result: the curved spacetime is classical General Relativity and the scalar field (in which Haw…

> The key point though is that their mechanism cannot work in vacuum. It absolutely requires that the light travels significantly slower than the gravitational radiation I am not a physicist, but I understand we are talking about Universe so early after Big Bang that it wasn't yet transparent to light. There simply wasn't vacuum yet if by vacuum you mean electromagnetic waves being able to travel long distances.

I am not sure what you're getting at exactly. Although the paper does touch on early universe cosmology, the authors do their principal analysis using the refractive value for water, and there were no interstellar water clouds before early supernovae started generating oxygen. The authors also explicitly contemplate observables generated by LIGO-accessible compact binary mergers ("compact" here means black holes and neutron stars), all of which postdate the first stars.

In physical cosmology (and especially considering alternatives to General Relativity) it is very common to consider the possibility that some effect is strong in the very early universe and so weak as to be undetectable at present times (or even as early as the first galaxies or the surface of last scattering). Examples include auxiliary gravitational fields ("bimetric" theories, for example) that decay in the early universe, variable-speed-of-light/variable-Newton's-constant theories, and so forth.

Although one might think "hm, it's very convenient that an important effect only happens so early that we cannot use telescopes to see it", there is very good evidence for electroweak unification and cosmic inflation, both of which terminated (in different ways) in the very early universe, and are (or arguably were) too difficult to directly observe this late in the universe's history. Additionally there is ample indirect evidence that (if it exists) is within our reach.

That the hypothesized graviton-photon mechanism cannot work in vacuum makes it at least very difficult to test (or observe with telescopes) today, however the final section of the paper does suggest that if it happens in nature, where it happens is likely to become accessible to us in due course. This is not a theory that has a hard cut-off in the early universe; it is just a hypothesis that to be realized requires a configuration of e.g. binaries and molecular clouds that is not very close to what we commonly observe. (Double-binary compact objects in dusty environments might end up being commonplace though, and in those settings one could expect changes in "multimessenger" signals if the authors' ideas are correct. It's amazing how many star systems are turning out to be triples, and we know of triple-compact-star systems; there are a number of known quadruples like DI Chamaelontis; and Gamma Cassiopeiae is a system of at least seven ~stellar mass bodies.)

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#52
post #42

We know that light can create gravity, so it stands to reason that there should be a reciprocal relationship!

"We know that light can create gravity" I've never heard of light creating gravity, where did you learn this?

In General Relativity, any momentum is encoded in the stress-energy tensor in the Einstein Field Equations, which relates curvature (mainly described by the Einstein tensor) and matter (mainly described by the stress-energy tensor). The vacuum of General Relativity has the stress-energy tensor filled with zeroes in all its components; a wave or beam of light introduces one or more nonzeroes. In suitable coordinates and the flat spacetime of special relativity, this is encoded in the "p" (p for momentum) in e.g. E^2 = (pc)^2 + (mc^2)^2, a fuller version of the famous E = mc^2. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy%E2%80%93momentum_relati...> for details.

Alternatively, we can consider the active and passive gravitational charges of a given mass, also commonly called the active gravitational mass and the passive gravitational mass. The passive charge describes a mass's response to a known source of gravitation; the active charge describes the strength of the gravitational effects generated by an object. In General Relativity the version of the equivalence principle that says that all objects fall identically no matter what their internal composition is ("universality of free fall") ensures that the passive and active charges are identical for all matter. Moreover, in the approximately three hundred years before General Relativity was first written down, there were many successful tests of the equality of the active and passive gravitational charges for many masses; many of these tests were motivated by the work of Newton.

In both Newtonian gravity and General Relativity, light is deflected around large masses (e.g. light from distant stars, or radio beams from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER> grazing the sun, and also lunar laser ranging experiments), so in both theories light has a passive gravitational charge (or passive gravitational mass). If passive and active gravitational charges are identical or at least totally equivalent, light must also source gravitation.

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#53
post #42

We know that light can create gravity, so it stands to reason that there should be a reciprocal relationship!

"We know that light can create gravity" I've never heard of light creating gravity, where did you learn this?

It's a direct consequence of general relativity, because photons carry energy and momentum.

Some discussion here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/22876/does-a-pho...

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that gravity alone can create radiation - the Hawking one To be pedantic, we don't know this. Hawking radiation has never been observed.

to be even more pedantic, hawking radiation isn't exactly created by gravity

furthermore, so far in universe (after big bang), nothing is really created, only transformed.

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#55
post #3

The title is about gravity, but the first line is about wave of gravity. Hmm. We know that gravity alone can create radiation - the Hawking one. We also know that gravitational waves - the spacetime curvature changes with time - carry energy, so can be transformed into light. Do we still know if spacetime alone can create light?.. I'm not sure we know it today. So... we have a great experiment here, which shows somet…

I never thought about Hawking radiation in this way! How is the Feynman diagram??? [Ok, there is no Quantum Gravity theory yet, but is there a good guess?]

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#56
post #14

All quantum fields have their vacuum energy fluctuations. When we change the parameters of the space (e.g. stretch or compress it), the current state is no longer the ground state but becomes a so-called squeezed vacuum state. This effect is used in laser physics to "split photons" in spontaneous parametric downconversion. That is, an intense laser changes the refractive index of a medium periodically. These oscillat…

That's a nice explanation. Finally some high falutin physics I can understand in terms of paramps.

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#57
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to remember that General Relativity is wrong. We don't know exactly how it's wrong, but it's wrong. In light of that fact, it's not really a proper answer to say that "General Relativity says it isn't so it isn't." It is true that GR says gravity isn't a force, but the implication doesn't follow. We don't know whether a Grand Unified Theory would have gravity as a force or not. Given that a great deal of the…

I'm not seeing how these distinctions are helpful. Maybe there's a miscommunication? When we say "gravity isn't a force", it's shorthand for "our best understanding of gravity, with the widest explanatory power that most accurately matches experimental results, says that gravity isn't a force." But that's an exhausting, verbose way to talk. Knowing that GR is incomplete doesn't change that. No falsifiable theory is 1…

This isn't philosophical relativism. I don't deal in that.

This is precisely where GR doesn't work, so using it to declare with confidence what gravity "is" is as silly as using QM to do it. They don't work on this matter. General Relativity is definitely not a complete description of how the universe works. It's a good approximation, even a very good one.. but no more than that.

We know this. It is well understood. This is not some sort of whacky Time Cube position. The whacky Time Cube position is really the one that says GR is correct so we can declare with confidence that gravity isn't a force.

In the end I don't expect gravity to be different from electromagnetism and the other forces. There's been plenty of efforts to build GUTs from nothing but geometry in which case nothing is a "force". Efforts from the QM side tend to incorporate "gravitons" as the force mediation particle just like the other forces have mediation particles. It seems very likely to me that GR's "gravity is specially not a force" will end up being an error, in that either all the other forces turn out not to be forces either, in which case we'll change the meaning, or it will be a force like every other. I don't think there's a lot of reason to expect this to be anything other than an artifact of GR being an approximation.

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#58
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We know that light can create gravity" I've never heard of light creating gravity, where did you learn this?

It's a direct consequence of general relativity, because photons carry energy and momentum. Some discussion here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/22876/does-a-pho...

Maybe better as "momentum-energy" than as "energy and momentum". "Stress-energy" is probably better still.

I don't think we have to consider the photons as such because large-photon-number beams sent from, to, and between spacecraft have been shown to deflect around masses in our solar system, sunlight generates measurable radiation pressure (and greybody radiation contributes to the Yarkovsky effect), and because your parent comment just asked about "light".

If we take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor#/...> and change the 0 indices to "t" (for time), T^{tt} represents quantities conserved across a purely timelike translation, and thus "energy".

However, your t and my t can differ if we are in a quasilocally-different gravitational field, or accelerated or boosted with respect to each other. In that case one of us may prefer coordinates where some of the quantity in T^{tt} is instead in T^{tj} (the latter being momentum), or even in the pressure diagonal T^{ij}, i == j, i != t.(e.g. when considering a Shapiro test setting, or a "mirrored box of light").

Although I don't think that much of that particular stack exchange discussion, the accepted answer is right to aim readers at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_stress%E2%80%9...>, which is almost wholly classical in its outlook. If one were really keen on thinking about gravitation and sufficiently small numbers of photons, it can get a bit messy or drive one towards the canonical quantization and canonical quantum gravity. As far as I can see nothing at your link goes anywhere close to that, or even really discusses the active or passive gravitational behaviour of an individual photon.

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#59
post #42

We know that light can create gravity, so it stands to reason that there should be a reciprocal relationship!

"We know that light can create gravity" I've never heard of light creating gravity, where did you learn this?

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3hd3AI2CAA

Re: Physicists discover that gravity can create light

#60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to be even more pedantic, hawking radiation isn't exactly created by gravity

furthermore, so far in universe (after big bang), nothing is really created, only transformed.

and (depending how time actually works) transformed also may be wrong, rather, everything simply is and time is our hallucination of reality
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