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Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

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Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did address your first remark in the end of my comment: > All those factors are usually brought up in detail for things like solar and wind plants. It's just disingenuous not to count them for nuclear power. I did not talk about how much energy is provided or what to do about freight haulers.

I honestly believe that most of the carbon calculations come from the pro-renewable folks to promote whatever pet project they’re on about. Nobody seriously considering building a nuclear power plant is going to care about some “externalities” amortized over its 50-75 year lifetime.

> I honestly believe that most of the carbon calculations come from the pro-renewable folks to promote whatever pet project they’re on about.

Sounds like reflection to me, if anything.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#282

As a French not expert in the matter but living near nuclear plants: - one of the plant regularly leaks radioactive material - rivers are getting too hot to cool down nuclear plants correctly - nuclear plants are very unreliable, we almost got out of power this winter and next winter will be equally tough (only an abnormally hot winter avoid cuts...) - the government wants to simplify control organism and laws around…

Répondre en anglais serait impossible pour un tel niveau de mauvaise foi et de malhonnetteté intellectuelle.

> one of the plant regularly leaks radioactive material

Je suppose qu'il s'agit du Tricastin, ou il y a de temps en temps des petits rejets de Tritium détectés, parce qu'il n'y a pas vraiment d'autres centrales proches de Montpellier qui ont des emmerdes. "Regularly" est un mensonge, et omet aussi les quantités qui fuient. Oui, c'est un problème qu'il y ait une fuite, et le CRIIRAD bosse dessus des que ca arrive, mais on parle de radioactivité non seulement très minimes, mais extrèmement diluées aussi.

>rivers are getting too hot to cool down nuclear plants correctly

Non. On décide de ne pas rejeter de l'eau chaude dans les rivières parce qu'elles sont déjà très chaudes et qu'on a des normes pour éviter d'endommager la vie aquatique qui sont extrèmement basses, et basées sur une moyenne de temperature annuelle. Dans la pratique, on pourrait faire monter largement les temperatures des cours d'eau sans danger encore, mais on ne le fait pas justement pour éviter des surprises. Et c'est oublier que ce problème n'existe que pour les centrales n'ayant de pas de tours aerorefrigerantes, auquel cas _il n'y a aucun probleme de refroidissement_

>nuclear plants are very unreliable, we almost got out of power this winter and next winter will be equally tough (only an abnormally hot winter avoid cuts...)

Jean-José Mauvaise Foi frappe fort la. 60 ans de production sans aucun incident majeur, il aura fallu trois vagues de covid + des conditions météorologiques défavorables + un problème structurel relativement mineur (mais corrigé du coup) qui a causé un alignement des arrêts de centrales.

>the government wants to simplify control organism and laws around building new plants

Fallait pas donner une majorité relative aux tarés.

Bref, comme d'hab, finir sur un "je suis pas contre le nucléaire hein" tout en donnant des arguments dignes du pire article de Reporterre.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#283
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear proponents when trying to sell nuclear love to shout about how successful France is. Someone from France is telling you that actually, it's really not that great...and now France's nuclear program is terrible and the result of 20-30 years of neglect and politics? Also, which part of "nuclear plants are sensitive to environmental changes" didn't you get? If there's no cooling water, or the water is too hot, th…

> Someone from France is telling you that actually, it's really not that great... If there is one immutable truth about the French psyche, it’s that things are always “really not that great”. Source: I am French, and left France because of that state of mind.

Sorry I don't believe in the existence of country-wide psyches. Also not claiming things are great when we think they aren't is how we bring progress. I am sharing an opinion, which I didn't claim to be a fact either, but is based on my understanding the local and national news of the last decade.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#285

> Only nuclear power is carbon-free [...] You can stop reading right there as this immediately identifies this piece as disingenuous at best, more likely though propaganda. The whole process is definitely not "carbon-free". Uranium extraction, transport and processing produce emissions. Building the plants and maintaining them does. Eventually demolishing does. Transporting the used fuel as well as building and maint…

My biggest issue with these proposals is one that is at the heart of the documentary here and put pretty succinctly: https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/containmen... How can we contain or dispose of some of the deadliest, most long-lasting substances ever produced? How to we ensure it lasts well beyond the possibility of our civilization currently and mark it in such a way that its clear to others its…

The story gets better here when you consider that most "waste" can actually be reused (93% of uranium fuel rods used in LWRs could be recycled). Also consider, more radioactive materials (the parts we can't currently recycle, outside of some exotic hypothetical reactor designs) have shorter half lives, and so aren't a problem for as long.

The best containment proposal I've seen is deep geological disposal.

Also consider, making fuel rods removes some radioactivity from the environment, so if you change the requirements from "keep all byproducts contained forever" to "keep all byproducts contained until radiation levels are no worse than where we got it from" the problem becomes more tractable.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, nuclear doesn't always get cheaper. Chernobyl happened, how do we fix that? Containment building. That costs money. Western nuclear power plants always had containment buildings, so no, this isn't a factor. > Fukushima happened, how do we fix that? Better backup plans. Most places aren't subject to magnitude 9.1 earthquakes, so no such plans are needed. Nuclear power benefits from economies of scale. Buildin…

> Western nuclear power plants always had containment buildings, so no, this isn't a factor. The point is that nuclear is safe because we've been making it safer over time, and that rarely makes it cheaper. The specific ways in which that's done isn't the point. Mass production in general is made cheaper by simplifying and cutting corners. Nuclear isn't terribly friendly towards this, you can't just go "How about we…

> The point is that nuclear is safe because we've been making it safer over time, and that rarely makes it cheaper. The specific ways in which that's done isn't the point.

Er, no it is the point. We've always been using the safety mechanisms you specified, so it's not going to affect costs because those safety features have always been there.

> Everything does, but nuclear benefits less. Precisely because of what you said, they have no other market use. You'll need to convince industries that it's worth scaling up for that, and that it won't backfire. That will be tricky.

Quite the contrary, it makes it benefit vastly more from economies of scale. For example, one of the central components in a wind turbine is an alternator or dynamo. We make alternators for all kinds of products, so doubling the production of wind turbines doesn't remotely double the market for alternators because wind turbines are only a small segment of the market for alternators.

By comparison, nuclear pressure vessels are only used for nuclear power plants. Thus doubling the production of nuclear pressure vessels doubles the market for pressure vessels. Serialized production of nuclear power at scale would easily expand the market for nuclear power components by an order of magnitude. The same cannot be said of wind turbines and alternators.

You're missing the context that renewables are currently being used to supplement a primarily fossil fuel grid. This means we don't actually have to accommodate the intermittent nature of renewable production. Once renewables saturate the energy market during peak production, things become a lot harder for renewables. You're comparing apples to oranges when you compare an intermittent source to a non-intermittent source.

People want solutions right now, and intermittent sources are not a solution until cheap and scalable energy storage is invented. Which it hasn't. We have geographically-limited options like hydro which are good for the regions that have access to it. But for everywhere else, it's either continue to use fossil fuels or nuclear power.

> Yeah, batteries are expensive, but remember Tesla's battery in Australia that got done in 100 days?

How much does it store? Media reports this as "2,000 megawatt seconds" [1]. In other words, 0.55 megawatt hours. This is less electricity than a small nuclear plant produces every minute. To put this in perspective the US alone consumes about 12 TWh (or 12,000,000 MWh) of electricity every day. We'd need tens of millions of these battery facilities.

Again, there's a reason why plans for a primary renewable grid assume hydrogen storage, or some new battery chemistry will be a silver bullet for storage.

1. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-beg...

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#287
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe has a large dependence on Russia for nuclear technology. There are also Russian reactors in Europe That seems to be a legacy, not a necessary constraint.

Where else are you going to go though? Germany threw in the towel, nuclear has been stagnant in France and USA for decades. Maybe Sweden/Finland? They do it but slowly, expensively and are a whole generation behind. That leaves you with China. Which from an objective/technical standpoint is actually excellent because their current designs are extremely good. However it's probably not tenable for the West to procure n…

China especially leads the deployment of coal power plants. Two new blocks of coal power plants are getting online every week.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#288
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming things on neglect or politics just isn't useful. We need power sources that have some resilience to those things.

> We need power sources that have some resilience to those things. None of the power sources have resilience to politics.

No but some are more resilient than others. It is much easier politically to shut a nuclear power station down than remove dirty wood burners from people's houses.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#289

As a French not expert in the matter but living near nuclear plants: - one of the plant regularly leaks radioactive material - rivers are getting too hot to cool down nuclear plants correctly - nuclear plants are very unreliable, we almost got out of power this winter and next winter will be equally tough (only an abnormally hot winter avoid cuts...) - the government wants to simplify control organism and laws around…

France has been mismanaging its fleet and signally for years that they want to move away from it, under-investing in it, etc. It's not the technology's fault. Germany had some of the best managed plants in the world -- until they decided to shut them down, leading to more coal being burned and more dependence on other countries like Russia...

I am cautious on technology vs management. It's like the people who thinks death penalty is great in theory but the justice system is imperfect in practice: maybe, but you can't have one without the other. Nuclear plants have to be managed and that's an issue too.

Re: Nuclear Power Is the Answer to Global and Environmental Energy Woes

#290
post #227
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an accurate but misleading description of what’s going on because Ontario is part of a much larger grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_power_transmiss... It’s like saying a town next to a nuclear power plant is 90% nuclear, that’s “true” but only works because other areas don’t rely on 90% nuclear. Just like the town, Ontario exports power to other areas and imports non nuclear power. If everyon…

It's not just about the cost. The mix of nuclear and locally-available gas and hydroelectric makes for a self-sufficient energy strategy, and that has always been a major concern. Yes, Ontario is synchronized with the US grid but it could disconnect if necessary. Electricity is a valuable but not critical export economically. As with France, a substantial influence on historic policy was to build surplus generation f…

At the scale of the worldwide electricity grid cost is a major concern.

If the difference was a few billion globally then that’s trivial compared to the issues from climate change, but you can’t hand wave things once the difference starts crossing into the trillions.

France was able to heavily subsidize Nuclear and while their economy took a real hit it wasn’t such a big deal. Bangladesh and other developing countries simply aren’t capable of making those kinds of trade offs and nobody is going to subsidize nuclear power in the 3rd world on the scale they would need.

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