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Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

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Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#171

Post by giantg2 »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #62
orange_joe wrote: post #9

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

At the university level, good teaching is a value only some institutions hold. They'll all say they care, but research schools are paying way more attention to grants, publications, parents, etc than to student evals. There are universities that prioritize teaching over research and, unsurprisingly, they tend to have better teaching professors. I went to a school that didn't emphasize research and never had a TA teac…

Same here. I didn't have any TA taught classes because none of the professors I had were researchers.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#172

Post by natpalmer1776 »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #159
natpalmer1776 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> I don’t care what CRT is academically Wut? Aren't you explicitly talking about an academic context? Wouldn't that matter a heck of a lot what class your brother was getting taught? Like, hypothetically I can disagree with feminism but I'm just being stupid if I go to a feminism 101 class and get mad the professor is teaching feminist theories.

[deleted]

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#173

Post by thechao »

ajford wrote: post #92

So as a Texan I'm on the fence here. I wasn't directly involved (as a student and TA), but spent a fair while in academia, and was rather close personal friends with a number of adjunct professors, tenure-track profs, post-docs, and grad students. I was looking at staying in academics so I had many long discussions about the state of things (at least at the time, about a decade ago). There was a lot of concern in the…

There's a lot of conversation going on, but I am familiar with a number of the parties pushing this legislation. The entire point is so that the lege can force TX universities to get rid of "undesirable" faculty. Full stop: it's a means to stifle divergent opinions. I'm under the impression that there's already a list.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#174

Post by svc0 »

orange_joe wrote: post #9

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

The major benefit of tenure is as a protection for pursuing the truth when researching controversial academic subjects. It protects the behavioral genetics research which takes place at UT Austin from left wing attacks and the positions some professors have taken on Texas A&M's annual drag show from right wing attacks.

As a student in the Texas system, I've raised questions which my professors refused to talk about fearing political backlash. Tenure is an important institution. I think you can only go so far to incentivize good teaching through termination.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#175

Post by nappy-doo »

ano-ther wrote: post #140

Scott Aaronson who has tenure in Texas describes the effect as this: > […] it would be the end of UT Austin and Texas A&M as leading research universities. More precisely, it would be the immediate end of our ability to recruit competitively, and the slightly slower end of our competitiveness period, as faculty with options moved elsewhere. This is so because of the economics of faculty hiring. Particularly in STEM f…

[flagged]

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#176

Post by robwwilliams »

mgbmtl wrote: post #70
y-curious wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like the lifetime appointment of Supreme Court judges, tenured professorship is a great idea that gets warped in practice.

Prof jobs might be researched-focused, teaching-focused, or a mix of both. Some universities really pushed research, in order to go for grants and donations. It also helps attract grad students. They usually make less enjoyable undergrad experiences. Then again, having profs that only teach, not research, can become very disconnected after a while. You may as well have a grad student repeat from the book. I know a fe…

Agree. One major difference is between:

1. Technical TRAINING to do job X (rote-style)

2. Conceptual LEARNING to think creatively about solving problems and asking and answering novel questions—big or small.

Many of us on Hacker News understands the huge difference between this teo modes that has been so elegantly captured in Richard W Hammings “The Art of Doing Science and Engineering: Learning to Learn”.

If you want to be TRAINED then sure, go to an institution that does no research.

If you want to LEARN then go to an institution that does some research, better yet, a great deal of research.

I was an undegrad at UCSC in the 1970s—-no grades and great faculty who loved both teaching and research. I learned to learn and I still live to learn.

Now I am expected to TRAIN first year med students human genetics that will allow them to pass their boards. The boards demand insufferably ancient genetics—a cut-off date of 2001 would be fine-wonderful. But there has been a bit of progress in genetics in the last two decades. I tried to teach them a hybrid of the “classics” but with 50% of time devoted to cutting-edge modern genetics. I hate TRAINING to the test.

You can imagine my reviews as a professor. Who is at fault?

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#177

Post by uberman »

nextos wrote: post #83
tiedieconderoga wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with tenure, you would need to be extremely passionate about education or research to go into academia in fields like software or mech/chem/EE. The opportunity cost is easily 6 figures/yr, for your entire career. The hours are long, the pay is laughable, the kids are not alright, you must publish or perish...maybe these universities are intentionally selecting for professors who will have a high tolerance for ab…

Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.

Let's say that was true and I am calling BS on it as I happen to consult in higher ED at an Ivy. Would it be a problem if it was true that someone with a phd and 3 or 4 years of additional research experience were to make the same salary as a newb undergrad?

Note, where I consult, new 4 year grads get offers that often exceed the salary of their tenured professors.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#178

Post by petsfed »

Alupis wrote: post #142
stametseater wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the number of near-poverty retail workers trying to pay off college debt, I think it's a good idea for the government to focus more on improving the quality of teaching, even if that comes at the cost of diminished research output. As it stands, the system saddles undergrads with tons of debt and not much to show for it, with socially disastrous results. If a university wants to focus on research and does…

You found the symptom, but prescribed the wrong treatment. > Considering the number of near-poverty retail workers trying to pay off college debt > As it stands, the system saddles undergrads with tons of debt and not much to show for it, with socially disastrous results. If you have a degree, and are working retail, and are near-poverty, then you screwed up somewhere. Your degree is objectively useless if this is th…

I worked retail for 2 years after completing a master's in condensed matter and transistor physics. It just happened to be during a time (~2014) when that degree alone was insufficient in getting me a job, even an entry-level one.

I think barring student loans is part of the strategy. Also, focusing on financial literacy prior to high school graduation. If we must have student loans, then colleges need to publish data about graduation rates, job placement rates, etc for a given program, and let lenders determine if loans for that program are a good idea. The whole situation is maddening because there are so many loud voices blaming the literal children who signed for the loans in the first place but (as you say) nobody making any meaningful change to prevent it happening again.

I really wish I could go back in time to slap 18-year-old me before I signed on for student loans, but by the time I understood what I was in for, my options were "take on more loans to pay to finish school and get a high-paying job, or take on jobs that will never pay well enough to pay off this debt". The sunk-cost fallacy is supposed to be a fallacy but perversely, as it pertains to student loans, its the inventive to keep going.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#179

Post by drstewart »

dctoedt wrote: post #89
natpalmer1776 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of responding to folks caught up on the wrong shit, so here's what I should have said in the first place: In my personal experience I've seen or heard of more professors espousing their personal views as fact than most online and academic discourse would have otherwise led me to believe possible. I think removing tenure is a net loss for research because professors now have to worry about politically motiva…

How often do your scenarios occur in real life?

Oops, you meant to reply to the parent comment. It's a mistake on your part, you may want to clarify.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#180

Post by PuppyTailWags »

natpalmer1776 wrote: post #172
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t care what CRT is academically Wut? Aren't you explicitly talking about an academic context? Wouldn't that matter a heck of a lot what class your brother was getting taught? Like, hypothetically I can disagree with feminism but I'm just being stupid if I go to a feminism 101 class and get mad the professor is teaching feminist theories.

[deleted]

I think using an example of {x} where x is an academic subject matter, and the complaint was that it was used in an academic setting, and is used as an example of a bad behavior involving academic institutions, it's worth inquiring if that example is valid! If I presented a mathematical proof in a math paper in a math journal, my proof being incorrect is kind of a big deal.
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