Live data from Hacker News

Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

chronicle.com

101–110 of 326 posts

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of responding to folks caught up on the wrong shit, so here's what I should have said in the first place: In my personal experience I've seen or heard of more professors espousing their personal views as fact than most online and academic discourse would have otherwise led me to believe possible. I think removing tenure is a net loss for research because professors now have to worry about politically motiva…

In the real world of academia, CRT is a legal theory, not a biological one.

[deleted]

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#102
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of responding to folks caught up on the wrong shit, so here's what I should have said in the first place: In my personal experience I've seen or heard of more professors espousing their personal views as fact than most online and academic discourse would have otherwise led me to believe possible. I think removing tenure is a net loss for research because professors now have to worry about politically motiva…

How often do your scenarios occur in real life?

[deleted]

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#103
in the humanities there is a glut of excellent scholars who would be happy to have a non-tenured professorship which is nevertheless a real job with decent pay, benefits, and working conditions.

in applied technical fields it will be really hard to hire people as tenure and academic freedom are the only reason people deal with the BS of academia over industry.

so this will probably have the opposite effect of what the legislature wants, the pool of left-leaning humanities professors won’t change much, while STEM will be hugely weakened.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#104
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but there is no chance in hell that we are moving to Florida and teaching; the infamous "Don't Say Gay" bill is so broad and idiotic (and she would be teaching biology ), that Florida is a complete non-starter for us since neither of us really have any desire to be…

Can you help me understand what aspect of teaching biology in grades k through 3 would be against the provisions of the law in Florida? I studied biology to age 16 in England (“o-levels”) and don’t recall anything even up to that age that would be covered under this law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_E...

Because it's not just grades K through 3 anymore [1].

The law is pretty broad and moreover the legal costs default to the defendant. Even if my wife didn't do something that was officially illegal, we'd be stuck counter-suing to reclaim legal costs.

[1] https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-ap...

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#105
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with tenure, you would need to be extremely passionate about education or research to go into academia in fields like software or mech/chem/EE. The opportunity cost is easily 6 figures/yr, for your entire career. The hours are long, the pay is laughable, the kids are not alright, you must publish or perish...maybe these universities are intentionally selecting for professors who will have a high tolerance for ab…

Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.

Please give an example of such a university?

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#106
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but there is no chance in hell that we are moving to Florida and teaching; the infamous "Don't Say Gay" bill is so broad and idiotic (and she would be teaching biology ), that Florida is a complete non-starter for us since neither of us really have any desire to be…

Can you help me understand what aspect of teaching biology in grades k through 3 would be against the provisions of the law in Florida? I studied biology to age 16 in England (“o-levels”) and don’t recall anything even up to that age that would be covered under this law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_E...

a lot of the fear is not so much not what the law says, but how a local school administration or local judge decides to interpret it after arbitrary complaints by parents. even if you’re eventually ruled to comply with the law it could make your life pretty miserable.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#107
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work... Well, what kind of knowledge do you have of university internals? Most people here on HN who want to get rid of university admin are on the outside looking in, and find it very hard to understand what all the admin do. In my experience, when I start to explain that a university is more like a town than a school, and "admin" are in fact the people who…

Here's the problem with your "admins are so absolutely necessary" argument. Per https://mndaily.com/193678/uncategorized/statistics-show-inc... between 1999 and 2010 admin jobs increased 75% across universities. Per https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/11/10/reluctance-on-the-... over the last 20 years, the number of managerial and professional staff that Yale employs has risen three times faster than the undergraduat…

Bureaucracies bloat because they gradually fill up with the sort of bureaucrats who seek foremost to expand their own dominion. From the individual perspective of such a bureaucrat, the more people they have working under them, the more important they are. From this individual selfish incentive, bureaucratic bloat becomes an emergent phenomenon.

Or put another way:

> Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people":

> First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

> Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

> The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#108

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

At the university level, good teaching is a value only some institutions hold. They'll all say they care, but research schools are paying way more attention to grants, publications, parents, etc than to student evals. There are universities that prioritize teaching over research and, unsurprisingly, they tend to have better teaching professors. I went to a school that didn't emphasize research and never had a TA teac…

How much research do we need? Sure there are advances to make in physics, but do we really need another paper explaining why Richard III wasn't completely evil, or whatever similar activity English professors research? How much more research into the real nature of the Greeks do we need? Don't get me wrong, both are interesting subjects, and the thinking that goes into those papers is worth teaching/knowing. However the real reason to support most college programs is teaching to think (a topic hard to define!), not having the professors do research.

If you are a medical researcher there is a lot of useful research to do. Most subjects are of questionable value. It is unknown if knowing more about how quarks work will ever be useful.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#109
post #41

Not the law yet, but as Scott Aaronson (I'm positive along with others) has pointed out, this would make their universities vastly less attractive to various incoming faculty. Whether that would be as impactful in STEM as in the humanities or human-interest areas like law remains to be seen.

IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind, and this scared tons of great faculty.

>Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind

I could be wrong but I don't think it's correct

https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/

any links on that?

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#110
post #47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but there is no chance in hell that we are moving to Florida and teaching; the infamous "Don't Say Gay" bill is so broad and idiotic (and she would be teaching biology ), that Florida is a complete non-starter for us since neither of us really have any desire to be…

I’m not from US but I’m curious what is the situation in other states? Are there situations like that occurring elsewhere (even if the bias is in the opposite political direction e.g. in California or somewhere) or is Florida a “lonely island” here with regard to free speech limitations on universities?

1. Imho, Florida is just leading the way for other states (many of which are actually more conservative than Florida). One reason Florida might be taking the lead is because the current governor is making a run for president in 2024, and this is establishing his bona fides. Florida is definitely not a “lonely island”.

2. Liberal states seem to be going extreme in other directions. Some examples are how “equity” policies (in general, not a bad idea) are implemented. Gifted programs, ap programs, accelerated programs and the like are being cut because the participants don’t have the proper racial ratios (Asians and Whites tend to be statistically over-represented). Equity is not an unreasonable policy to pursue, but doing it by holding back others is regressive, imho. Holding back high achievers also addresses the problem at the wrong level — that is, the origins of academic inequality typically happen at a much earlier age.

Interestingly, in most states (blue, red, or purple), teachers are almost forced to teach to the bottom 25-30% of each class, since schools are evaluated by how many people meet the minimum standards rather than by overall or high level achievement.

Post reply on HN