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Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

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Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#31

Post by Centigonal »

majormajor wrote: post #20
aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

What's somewhat interesting is that this is a move being made by people who simultaneously claim to want more freedom of expression in general. It's obvious to see how there could be non-Republican-friendly results of faculty being easier to fire for, say, a controversial twitter post. So what's the thinking here? Seems like it could be... * pure political theater, without really focusing on long-term affects * the r…

I think nearly everyone who says "I want more freedom of expression" leaves out the quiet part, which is "...for people who think like I do."

There are many, many examples of supposed "free speech advocates" trying to silence dissenting voices or criticism.

Under that assumption, it makes perfect sense that Texas conservatives, believing colleges are liberal bastions that spread ideas they disagree with, would see anything that reduces the power of college faculty as a win.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#32

Post by [deleted] »

orange_joe wrote: post #9

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

[deleted]

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#33

Post by endtime »

armchairhacker wrote: post #23
aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

More generally we need better protections for faculty with controversial views who can still teach and research to not get “cancelled”; better labor protections and more jobs so that faculty can advocate for themselves and receive less work (vs. getting disciplined or fired) when they are too old to effectively teach and research; better grants and more jobs so that faculty have better pay; better grants and more job…

> faculty can advocate for themselves and receive less work (vs. getting disciplined or fired) when they are too old to effectively teach and research

Why is this desirable (to anyone other than elderly faculty)?

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#34

Post by ModernMech »

all2 wrote: post #19
tristor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The change in academia is largely correlated with the fall-off of tenured positions in favor of adjunct faculty and the explosion of administration. I don't think it indicates that there is no need for tenure, but rather that tenure provided a bulwark against the very outcomes we now are seeing.

What if we started an institution that automated most of the admin, hired and based admissions on pure skill/ability/talent? It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work...

> It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work...

Well, what kind of knowledge do you have of university internals?

Most people here on HN who want to get rid of university admin are on the outside looking in, and find it very hard to understand what all the admin do.

In my experience, when I start to explain that a university is more like a town than a school, and "admin" are in fact the people who run the town and implement the services, it becomes very hard to identify where the cuts should be. The library? IT? Health center? police? The arts complex and associated services? The sports complex and associated services? The transportation system?

And before you say these aren't the prerogative of a university, because a university is just a school, and it shouldn't offer these things, I have two responses. One, you're thinking of a "college". Two, if universities get rid of these services, often times the local town cannot replace them. So how are they to manage?

So if you're having trouble understanding why a university can't simply cut or automate all the administrators, it could be because you don't have a clear understanding of their role and why they are crucial. Universities require bureaucracies and they don't scale linearly with the size of the student population.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#35

Post by tombert »

satysin wrote: post #4

So the Texas Senate just passed a bill that makes it more likely that Texas faculty hires will be from a smaller and no doubt lower quality pool of candidates? Why take a job without the possibility of tenure vs anywhere else in the US that has the option available to you?

Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but there is no chance in hell that we are moving to Florida and teaching; the infamous "Don't Say Gay" bill is so broad and idiotic (and she would be teaching biology), that Florida is a complete non-starter for us since neither of us really have any desire to be sued because some parent feels she might be teaching some "woke" agenda. I have no idea if my wife would be a good teacher, but I do know that if I were a teacher and I had options to teach elsewhere, I would not teach in Florida.

Similarly, professors are kind of absurdly underpaid, at least in STEM. Generally if you're qualified to be a professor in STEM, you're qualified for a nice yuppie job paying twice as much; one of the very few appealing things that professorships have is tenure.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#36

Post by RhodesianHunter »

satysin wrote: post #4

So the Texas Senate just passed a bill that makes it more likely that Texas faculty hires will be from a smaller and no doubt lower quality pool of candidates? Why take a job without the possibility of tenure vs anywhere else in the US that has the option available to you?

Creating becomes an issue they can always pay more to compensate for the lack of possible tenure.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#37

Post by edrxty »

satysin wrote: post #4

So the Texas Senate just passed a bill that makes it more likely that Texas faculty hires will be from a smaller and no doubt lower quality pool of candidates? Why take a job without the possibility of tenure vs anywhere else in the US that has the option available to you?

Getting rid of tenure is fine but they'll need to pay much more to stay competitive.

The calculous is fairly simple. Tenure track and then have an easy work life but less money, or go to industry and make lots of money but work more. Nothing wrong with either but if you get rid of the upsides to academia expect to replace them with something. That's just how market economies work.

The issue isn't stem so much as the stuff where there isn't a highly paying industry sector. Those PhDs will have to go out of state for the same QOL as there will be no other competition to increase pay.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#38

Post by cratermoon »

all2 wrote: post #19
tristor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The change in academia is largely correlated with the fall-off of tenured positions in favor of adjunct faculty and the explosion of administration. I don't think it indicates that there is no need for tenure, but rather that tenure provided a bulwark against the very outcomes we now are seeing.

What if we started an institution that automated most of the admin, hired and based admissions on pure skill/ability/talent? It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work...

> pure skill/ability/talent

First, find a way to accurately, fairly, and unambiguously define and measure those qualities.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#39

Post by PartiallyTyped »

armchairhacker wrote: post #23
aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

More generally we need better protections for faculty with controversial views who can still teach and research to not get “cancelled”; better labor protections and more jobs so that faculty can advocate for themselves and receive less work (vs. getting disciplined or fired) when they are too old to effectively teach and research; better grants and more jobs so that faculty have better pay; better grants and more job…

I definitely agree. The state __shouldn't__ under any circumstances have the power to police the content taught at universities. What sort of bastion of knowledge and free speech can universities be if they live in fear of getting angering a governor?
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