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Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

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Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#21

Post by ModernMech »

tristor wrote: post #14
aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

The change in academia is largely correlated with the fall-off of tenured positions in favor of adjunct faculty and the explosion of administration. I don't think it indicates that there is no need for tenure, but rather that tenure provided a bulwark against the very outcomes we now are seeing.

The new trend now is not adjunct faculty, but well-paid lecturers with 5-year contracts instead of tenure.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#22

Post by majormajor »

all2 wrote: post #19
tristor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The change in academia is largely correlated with the fall-off of tenured positions in favor of adjunct faculty and the explosion of administration. I don't think it indicates that there is no need for tenure, but rather that tenure provided a bulwark against the very outcomes we now are seeing.

What if we started an institution that automated most of the admin, hired and based admissions on pure skill/ability/talent? It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work...

"hired and based admissions on pure skill/ability/talent?"

Nobody agrees on what this looks like. So you're just asking for a big fight about that - exactly the kind that already happens for admissions.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#23

Post by armchairhacker »

aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

More generally we need better protections for faculty with controversial views who can still teach and research to not get “cancelled”; better labor protections and more jobs so that faculty can advocate for themselves and receive less work (vs. getting disciplined or fired) when they are too old to effectively teach and research; better grants and more jobs so that faculty have better pay; better grants and more jobs so that faculty can only research (these types of faculty suck at teaching), or only teach and not be considered “lesser”; etc. With all these tenure isn’t necessary.

But this is Texas, with US labor protection and a culture which openly hates education and dissent, so in this specific case it’s definitively bad.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#24

Post by nequo »

aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

Eliminating tenure only increases the pressure to chase grants.

Tenure is what affords academics the time to pursue research that pays off in 10 years instead of 2.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#25

Post by tejtm »

aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

Tenure effectively migrated to administration which being even further from the students makes it less "school" more value extraction corporation.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#26

Post by mkl95 »

satysin wrote: post #4

So the Texas Senate just passed a bill that makes it more likely that Texas faculty hires will be from a smaller and no doubt lower quality pool of candidates? Why take a job without the possibility of tenure vs anywhere else in the US that has the option available to you?

If you don't plan on staying in academia forever, tenure vs no tenure shouldn't really matter.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#27

Post by ericmay »

aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

On the other hand costs may rise because you may not be able to attract good professors if there isn't tenure to offset lower than industry wages. Or you may just get lots of turnover or low-quality professors.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#28

Post by cal5k »

tristor wrote: post #14
aborsy wrote: post #6

Honestly, it may not be a bad thing. Tenure was meant to protect the academic freedom, and pursuit of the long-term scientific research. Today, most academics chase money, grants, trends, citations and status. It’s a job like any other, and doesn’t need protection, at cost to those outside the ivory tower (unless perhaps for a very small subset).

The change in academia is largely correlated with the fall-off of tenured positions in favor of adjunct faculty and the explosion of administration. I don't think it indicates that there is no need for tenure, but rather that tenure provided a bulwark against the very outcomes we now are seeing.

Heavy government involvement in student loans created a perverse incentive to bloat costs (administration) and increase tuitions.

Classic bureaucratization, really... when the buyer and the seller of something (e.g. a university degree) are disconnected by way of, say, a flood of cheap student loans, the incentive structure for the bureaucracy is to increase its own budget, staff, and therefore power.

It's no wonder that administration has exploded along with tuitions.

Lack of tenured positions really has very little to do with it.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#29

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

satysin wrote: post #4

So the Texas Senate just passed a bill that makes it more likely that Texas faculty hires will be from a smaller and no doubt lower quality pool of candidates? Why take a job without the possibility of tenure vs anywhere else in the US that has the option available to you?

From what I understand the tenure system was already in decline and it was already understood that getting tenure was effectively out of reach for the younger generations of professors.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#30

Post by tgv »

orange_joe wrote: post #9

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

If you want to become a good researcher, go to university to learn from good researchers. If you want to become good in some other task, go to a school.
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