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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#591

500 Wh/kg means Sulphur cathode, which also explains the solid electrolyte. Roughly speaking, it'll be 3x as energy dense but only a 1/2 as volumetrically efficient (so, a given capacity battery will weigh 1/3 less but take up twice as much space). There are other approaches to Li-S (and Al-S and Mn-S) which will be less expensive. Grats to CATL for bringing this to market, but the race for sure isn't over yet.

A lot of other comments are saying 2x as dense (that current norms are around 250Wh/kg for mass produced and widely available product)… can you square that with your 3x claim? Am I missing something?

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#592
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big reason for this is thermodynamics. A conventional internal combustion engine car has to convert chemical energy to kinetic energy - the absolute best theoretical efficiency of this might be 70%, but in practice it's more like 30%. Electric cars have to pay the same thermodynamic penalty, but they pay it at the power station (In practice, thanks to renewables, not all the electricity used to charge a car will…

It is a sign of the success of the oil industry that this analysis always takes the cost of electricity generation back to the source, but assumes that fuel stations pump from a perfect source of naturally refined/distilled hydrocarbons. It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. The best I found was this: https://www.speakev.com/threads/energy-required-t…

This is exactly what gets me every time some German "institute" publishes a study how electric cars pollute more than gas cars. They count everything that goes into producing electricity, but never what goes into extracting, refining and transporting gasoline.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#593
post #88

It's not a new battery chemistry, though. It's still lithium-ion. Does something prevent thermal runaway with this?

It uses a solid-state electrolyte which is probably big reason for capacity increase. It is the flammable liquid electrolyte that causes fires in lithium ion batteries. Solid-state electrolyte shouldn’t be flammable, that is main reason people have been researching solid-state electrolytes.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are pointing at a single year, I am pointing at a trend [1,2]. The trend had been for the average global temperature to rise up to 2012 to 2016 - depending on which measurements you look at. After that period the average global temperature has declined by 0.06°C per year up to 2022. This change in the trend made the "global warming" moniker easily attacked "because the temperature are clearly going down". This is…

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/... It's a much longer trend than 2012-2016. I remember 2011, the last time conservatives were playing the "global warming has paused" game, but then oops! It returned to trend. No Ls were acknowledged, of course. What do the radiative flux measurements say this time around? They measure the derivative directly and are upstream of the most chaotic mixing pro…

> It's a much longer trend than 2012-2016

2012-2016 is not the period of warming, it is the period from which the warming trend changed into a cooling trend. Seen over the last century the warming trend is far longer, the most recent one starting somewhere in the beginning of the 70's until the mentioned 2012-2016 frame. After that a slight cooling period followed, taking down the temperature by 0.06°C/yr until 2022. 2022 was another warm year so if 2023 will be warm as well the cooling trend is most likely broken. These sort-time variations are not significant when discussing 'climate' - roughly defined as 'the weather trends over at least a 30 yr stretch' - but they do control what makes the news.

One question: why do you state is is ´conservatives' who claim that the warming trend was broken? You don't know whether those people were conservatives nor do I. It does not make sense - and is extremely counterproductive - to equate a person's stance on single issues like 'climate change' with their political affiliation since these issues should not in any way be connected to political ideology. If they are connected they are by definition suspect since ideology trumps objective reasoning. Either the climate changes - and it does, no question there - or it does not, independent on whether you or I vote for whatever party we choose. Allowing ideology to taint the discussion just turns off a large part of the populace no matter which ideology it happens to be. It is just plain stupid for climate change to be a 'progressive' cause, crime reduction to be a 'conservative' cause, etc. These issues should be pulled out of the ideological realm so that they can be discussed by everyone without accusations of -isms by 'either' side.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#595
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE bans apply to sales of new cars. It will take another 20 years or so after a ban before most of the existing stock of ICE is actually replaced.

It will be faster than you think, mostly because gas stations will be closing and so the inconvenience of fueling you car will cut that tail of - except for niches where EVs are particularly bad.

Spare parts and maintenance are likely going to be a problem first for ICE owners, rather than fuel availability. Who would be crazy enough now to invest in (and maintain) a factory for producing ICE-specific parts? Parts and skills for ICE will become scarcer and more expensive, making a new EV look economical to ICE owners in very short time. It has already been a few years now where it has been uneconomical not just to build a new fossil fuel power plant, but also to continue operating them due to maintenance costs. I'd suggest the same thing with ICE vehicles--it becomes easier/cheaper to run an EV rather than an old ICE quicker than people may usually assume.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#596
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current mass produced batteries, which tend to hover around 260-300 Wh/kg. Higher density (but still under 500) are available, but in far smaller quantities for a very high cost. The exciting part of this announcement is that if anyone can scale manufacturing, it is them.

What battery pack that I can buy right now is 300Wh/kg? Sincerely curious because that's 50Wh/kg above what people are using in some very expensive UAVs.

It'll take time (maybe significant) before these batteries are available for direct purchase. The problem is demand current outstrips supply. Every high capacity battery already claimed, in tesla's case for their cars and grid storage applications.

CATL pushing this sort of capacity, though, is great news. It certainly will accelerate availability.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#597
post #142
post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

That's about the same efficiency as every modern EV. This is not Tesla specific. Electric motors are very efficient, regenerative braking helps, EVs are designed to be super aerodynamic, etc.

In real world tests, most EVs are far from Tesla’s efficiency. Some are very far, a few are as good.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. Damn, I've never thought about that before. In hindsight that feels like an obvious thing to consider but this is the first time I'm aware of that thought entering my brain. Thank you for provoking the thought. What would be the equivalent consideration on the other side? Would it be something like inquiring in…

It’s not something we often consider because, again, the energy density of carbon fuels _is a couple of order of magnitudes higher_ then batteries. It seems trivial because a fuel hauling truck is an _absolutely immense_ source of energy compared to the energy it consumes to move.

Not when compared to a literal metal wire.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't car batteries also have very high current requirements? Turning over an engine takes an enormous amount of power.

Most batteries that run starters are not energy dense, they're typically standard lead acid batteries. FWIW, to provide the 225 amps (for a V8 starter motor) a Tesla car battery would only need a discharge capability of 3C (1C being around 80 amps), which is within its rated capabilities. This is also for batteries which provide higher voltages, so I'm vastly overestimating the C rate required. C is the unit for char…

Sure but it's not about starter motors - these batteries power 400kW motors, that's a lot of power.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#600
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not have a choice in the matter as more and more countries are thinking of/implementing ICE bans in the near future.

No, not for another ~15 years and then I'll still be able to buy ICE car. EVs in current state are not so good and what's even worse new ICE cars are becoming shittier and shittier because of restrictions imposing on them

EVs are amazing already. Great performance, quiet, convenient for many use cases. How are ICE cars getting 'shittier'?
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