Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank • Hacker News Board

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#61

Post by vkou » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 10:47 PM UTC

eitland wrote: post #36

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snow tires don't hold a candle to the doubling(!) of contact patch over which torque is transmitted that you get going from FWD/RWD to AWD and no amount of low effort quips about steering and braking will change the fact that, among people who drive like adults, the ability to get up hills, cross snow banks where cross streets meet plowed main roads and get up to speed for a merge without anything dumb happening are…

Either I am misreading you or or we disagree wildly. AWD is better than FWD or RWD, yes, but driving in the winter without snow tires. AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking and little as long as you aren't driving flat and not accelerating. Snow tyres help when accelerating, braking, driving straight forward and through curves, uphill and downhill. There is a reason why snow tires are mandatory here and AWD is…

> AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking

Correct. All cars, whether they are FWD, RWD, or AWD are All-Wheel-Brake. The most important aspect of stopping safely are your tires.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#62

Post by ethbr0 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 10:52 PM UTC

dumbfounder wrote: post #60

Kon-Peki wrote: post #27

One of the big negatives to sportiness in FWD cars has always been torque steer. But that is due to unequal-length driveshafts, not strictly the FWD-ness. A FWD EV shouldn't suffer from torque steer. I do welcome RWD EVs, but let's not get carried away. Honda has demonstrated again and again that FWD vehicles are capable of very high track performance.

Very high performance != Fun. They are different. They say Miatas are fun to drive, and they are cheap, and therefore popular to race. But they are definitely not fast cars. I have never driven one, but I have always favored RWD cars, and never driven a FWD car that is anywhere near as fun. But that said, I haven't driven everything.

I came in a little hot trying to catch a yellow light on a left hand turn (US) and powerslid a Miata perfectly across 4 lanes... my second month of owning one and driving stick.

That's the day I fell in love with 50/50 weight distribution, rear wheel drive, and low and light weight.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#63

Post by jerrysievert » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 10:53 PM UTC

mrinterweb wrote: post #59

Rear-wheel-drive vehicles have traction problems on slick roads. Losing traction on your front wheels is terrifying. I've had this happen before as I have had the opposite fishtailing with front-wheel-drive. Losing rear-wheel traction is something that can be compensated, but I don't think you can do much when you lose front-wheel traction.

yes, RWD can have traction issues, but modern (2006+) traction control handles this nicely. my RWD can be extremely squirrelly if I turn off traction control (I call it the "fun button"), but I've always felt I've had more control than what a FWD can offer me.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#64

Post by m463 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

mrinterweb wrote: post #59

Rear-wheel-drive vehicles have traction problems on slick roads. Losing traction on your front wheels is terrifying. I've had this happen before as I have had the opposite fishtailing with front-wheel-drive. Losing rear-wheel traction is something that can be compensated, but I don't think you can do much when you lose front-wheel traction.

I would think that front wheel drive would impair steering in tricky situations, while rear wheel drive would separate steering from drive and be better (with computerized help)

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#65

Post by explorer83 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #48

Syonyk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Snow tires don't hold a candle to... Yeah. They do. I've driven pretty much every combination of FWD, RWD, 4WD, and AWD, with and without snow tires, in a variety of winter conditions. The "other tires" were regular all seasons, not high performance summer tires or anything. RWD with all seasons is really bad in snow, and mine generally didn't leave the parking lot in winter, because it simply couldn't. When you ca…

I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability…

You're not wrong in the sense that snow tires are designed first to stop you. Not to start you. But if you call snow tires on a FWD "kool-aid" I completely disagree with you there. unless maybe you bought "true" all seasons (tires where some of the tread is like a winter tire), which are still relatively new and have a lot of tread depth. Those can probably get you by OK to where you would think true snow tires aren't worth it. But once they wear I'd still take worn snow tires over them any day. Source - Worked at a large tire wholesaler. Driven multiple FWD cars with true all seasons and true winters in winter conditions.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#66

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:06 PM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #57

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability…

Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is…

Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires.

The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground.

I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. Everyone(TM) can't be wrong.

What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#67

Post by m463 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:08 PM UTC

kenhwang wrote: post #23

I think this is just a side effect of most of the current EV offerings being expensive premium products. Once cheap EVs become more common, FWD will return because having the motor in front allows for much more efficient energy recapture with regen braking.

I think the cheapest way of putting a car together will win.

I think front wheel drive cars were probably about economics instead of traction or braking. In fact front wheel drive always had weird transient effects on steering. I'm guessing economics of no driveshaft plus a transverse mounted engine.

But with EVs the drive motor is small and can fit anywhere, so that's where they will put it - anywhere.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#68

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:10 PM UTC

explorer83 wrote: post #65

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability…

You're not wrong in the sense that snow tires are designed first to stop you. Not to start you. But if you call snow tires on a FWD "kool-aid" I completely disagree with you there. unless maybe you bought "true" all seasons (tires where some of the tread is like a winter tire), which are still relatively new and have a lot of tread depth. Those can probably get you by OK to where you would think true snow tires aren'…

I've lived it (these were proper studded snow tires). The improvement is there any very tangible but there's a reason I put the wife in the AWD one.

I agree that tread depth is massively important in the slushy conditions that commutes in the snow devolve into. You need that depth to provide a path for the "thick water" to GTFO so you're not hydroplaning on slush.

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#69

Post by m463 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:12 PM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #34

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not such a straightforward equation any more. As the article explains, electric cars can play tricks with the weight distribution that ICE vehicles can’t, and I would put a modern rwd with the latest traction assistance features above a FWD car from the early 2000s. Snow tires makes more of a difference than being FWD or RWD in heavy conditions is the real truth here.

> Snow tires makes more of a difference than being FWD or RWD in heavy conditions is the real truth here. A FWD with snow tires or chains will almost certainly have better snow/ice handling than a RWD with snow tires or chains, by the simple virtue of the drive axle being steerable. If you've played Kerbal Space Program or a similar spaceflight simulator + rocket designer, then the reasoning here should be pretty int…

> by the simple virtue of the drive axle being steerable.

Is that a virtue? it makes steering tougher.

The actual virtue is the weight of the motor over the front wheels (coefficient of friction * basically weight above tires)

Re: Rear-wheel-drive cars are back and we have EVs to thank

#70

Post by SECProto » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 11:19 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #66

SECProto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is…

Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires. The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground. I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and…

> I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires.

Most accidents are caused by failure to stop and failure to turn, not failure to accelerate.

> There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires.

You clearly live in a very different place than me - very few passenger vehicles are available with AWD (subarus, trucks, some SUVs). But everyone has snow tires.

> What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow

Great for you? Again, you clearly live in a place with very different conditions than I do. What about the conditions make it so that you can't accelerate, but you can turn or brake just fine?