Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gladwell's a good writer, but almost never backs up his positions with empirical evidence. I don't mind too much because I like his writing, but I wouldn't really trust his theories too much because he is a storyteller first.
For what it's worth, media contagion[1] has been a well-known factor in suicides for decades [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031539.htm
TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
121–130 of 204 posts
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#122The question is how to keep kids off social media. I am very thankful neighbor mom, who bought her son a smart watch and not a cheap android phone. Good example for other kids. It’s clear, that departments with lots of clever people are doing to lock young kids in the phones. And only parents can protect them.
dumb flip phones are making a comeback just for this exact reason.
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#123Although TikTok should do better to demote these kinds of videos, I can't buy the conspiracy theory that this is done intentionally. Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems can understand that watching depressing videos will get you more in your feed. Collaborative filtering with i.e watch time as a signal will lead someone who watches them to more.
Why does it matter if it’s intentional? Negligence is still a crime
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#124The question is how to keep kids off social media. I am very thankful neighbor mom, who bought her son a smart watch and not a cheap android phone. Good example for other kids. It’s clear, that departments with lots of clever people are doing to lock young kids in the phones. And only parents can protect them.
You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)
You are right in the second part, but the first part is unnecessarily defeatist. You could say the same about alcohol and smoking, "they will anyway try it with friends", yet it still makes sense to keep children away from it or postpone it.
While you cannot keep kids away from it forever, it makes a lot of difference when they are exposed to it and how well-equipped they are to deal with it.
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#125> When she opened the TikTok app on his iPad, she found a library of more than 3,000 videos her son had bookmarked, liked, saved or tagged as a favorite. She could see the terms he’d searched for: Batman, basketball, weightlifting, motivational speeches. And she could see what the algorithm had brought him: many videos about depression, hopelessness and death. Horrific.
The algorithm doesn’t work only on searches. Or even mostly. It is largely based on engagement. Which videos do you actually watch and comment on.
Almost nothing I search for is on my FYP. My FYP is almost all pranks, basketball, dancing in public, and Harry Mack.
I have noticed that if I watch a video all the way through I will get more of those videos pretty quickly. If this kid watched a depression video all the way through it will throw another at him shortly. If he watches that one then it can quickly change the algorithm to begin to favor those. The algorithm has a short memory.
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#126The question is how to keep kids off social media. I am very thankful neighbor mom, who bought her son a smart watch and not a cheap android phone. Good example for other kids. It’s clear, that departments with lots of clever people are doing to lock young kids in the phones. And only parents can protect them.
You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)
"You can't keep kids from drinking alcohol, they can get it from their friends parents."
This is also a true statement, but happens far less than it does with social media (or other violent or otherwise undesired media).
That's not currently what people want, but I think it could change it the future. But at the same time, there is a particular American quality of stubborness/pride that will probably push back "we have the right to keep hurting ourselves even though we don't really want to, but are being manipulated by algorithmic attention-fixation tricks!"
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#127Although TikTok should do better to demote these kinds of videos, I can't buy the conspiracy theory that this is done intentionally. Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems can understand that watching depressing videos will get you more in your feed. Collaborative filtering with i.e watch time as a signal will lead someone who watches them to more.
Why does it matter if it’s intentional? Negligence is still a crime
Proving causation is nearly insurmountable in suicide negligence cases even in fact patterns in which the person who killed themselves was heavily influenced by some person or someone who made the implements convenient to access. With a software application, causation is even more attenuated because the person's decision to kill themselves is almost always considered a superseding cause.
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#128It would be interesting to hear from those with training and expertise in Psychology and relevant behavioral fields.
For example, someone posted about a group of girls in Japan jumping to their deaths. What makes something like that possible? How does it happen?
Please do not add comments if you don't have the requisite training or experience. Questions would be OK.
This sub-thread could turn into a conversation between people with relevant credentials answering questions. We could all learn something from reading through such a thread.
Please state your credentials if you comment or answer questions.
No need for credentials if you post a question.
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why does it matter if it’s intentional? Negligence is still a crime
Proving causation is nearly insurmountable in suicide negligence cases even in fact patterns in which the person who killed themselves was heavily influenced by some person or someone who made the implements convenient to access. With a software application, causation is even more attenuated because the person's decision to kill themselves is almost always considered a superseding cause.
let's agree this is bad and hold them accountable
Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids
#130Although TikTok should do better to demote these kinds of videos, I can't buy the conspiracy theory that this is done intentionally. Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems can understand that watching depressing videos will get you more in your feed. Collaborative filtering with i.e watch time as a signal will lead someone who watches them to more.
I don't use TikTok but I have used the youtube shorts algorithm and it seems like its almost intentionally shit and trying to stir up people. I try and watch one linked short about something sports related on the home page and scroll feed automatically propagates with super low quality right wing, hustle and Jordan Peterson propaganda content.
We can deflect saying "Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems", blame my use of the platform or play these off as a technical problem but imo it seems like Google and the other tech companies know exactly what they are doing in these use cases and are just cynically deploying this content with the culture war filter on because they know it makes the most money. I think when people ascribe political leanings to tech companies that maybe the mean belief of their employee's but as an org it is not the standard opined ultra left havens.