The links to the pdf documents containing the emails are timing out. Does anyone have a mirror?
Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
41–50 of 55 posts
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't take long to look up that the Syrian government was formed as a result of a coup decades ago, especially if you're going to make a comment about it. EDIT: Actually I think there is a good point in your post, but I still think that familiarising yourself with the history of the country is necessary to understand where they are now.
I knew about the coup and I realize how ridiculous and meaningless a 1-party regime can seem (I've lived under one myself) but that doesn't exclude elections and political process from taking place. I did actually look up "Elections in Syria" on Google and read through the Wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Syria and also this article came up where the opposition was apparently boycotting…
Also when I lived under said 1-party regime I have never seen people more politically and socially engaged - and not just in a rebellious way. I live in Canada now and most people are totally indifferent as to what happens in their own community, let alone further afield.
I hope no one is reading my posts thinking "This guy is defending Hitler! Stone him!" For all I know Syria could be far worse then anything I've ever experienced. And in the end we kicked out our president too! (Although no bazookas or AK-47s were involved) So this could just be a natural progression of any authoritative regime.
Okay, I just don't get the reference. From your name, I'm guessing you originally come from ex-Yugoslavia, just like me. Now, the only time I remember the country was truly under 1-party regime was when the Communist Party was in power. However, that didn't end in "kicking out our president". If you're referring to Slobodan Milošević, by that time Yugoslavia (or what was left of it) had multiple parties. True, Slobodan seized the power, but there were other parties opposing him. And the only reason why "no bazookas or AK-47s were involved" was because things didn't have the chance to get there, because the army decided not to support him any more.
The whole point -- and I'm not the first one to point this out in this thread -- is that resistance to dictatorship (or any deprivation of liberty) gradually evolves from peaceful protests to violence.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#43Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I knew about the coup and I realize how ridiculous and meaningless a 1-party regime can seem (I've lived under one myself) but that doesn't exclude elections and political process from taking place. I did actually look up "Elections in Syria" on Google and read through the Wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Syria and also this article came up where the opposition was apparently boycotting…
Also when I lived under said 1-party regime I have never seen people more politically and socially engaged - and not just in a rebellious way. I live in Canada now and most people are totally indifferent as to what happens in their own community, let alone further afield. I hope no one is reading my posts thinking "This guy is defending Hitler! Stone him!" For all I know Syria could be far worse then anything I've ev…
Under Milosevic there were opposition parties but they had no real chance of assuming power in elections (whether because of election fraud, or because Milosevic had real support, or a little bit of both). All official media channels were controlled by the government and the only choices for opposition at that time had was to either get in bed with the Milosevic and reap some benefits or to organize rallies and protests. Protests were largely peaceful and lasted a long time. The main surge of protests that resulted in Milosevic's downfall was in the fall of 2000 but I can assure you we were in the streets for YEARS leading up to that. It wasn't swift by any means.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also when I lived under said 1-party regime I have never seen people more politically and socially engaged - and not just in a rebellious way. I live in Canada now and most people are totally indifferent as to what happens in their own community, let alone further afield. I hope no one is reading my posts thinking "This guy is defending Hitler! Stone him!" For all I know Syria could be far worse then anything I've ev…
Under Milosevic there were opposition parties but they had no real chance of assuming power in elections (whether because of election fraud, or because Milosevic had real support, or a little bit of both). All official media channels were controlled by the government and the only choices for opposition at that time had was to either get in bed with the Milosevic and reap some benefits or to organize rallies and prote…
That's precisely the point I was making. Resistance starts with peaceful protests and gets gradually more violent. The "main surge of protests" you're talking about was a lot less peaceful than the initial peaceful protests. It never got to the point of armed resistance, for two reasons: 1) Milošević didn't go around killing ordinary people indiscriminately and 2) the army decided to withdraw its support when he ordered them to disperse the protesters.
What do you think would have happened if general populace started getting slaughtered left and right? Sure, the vast majority of the people would've shut up and bent down their heads, because shutting the hell up is a lot better than having your kids shot or growing up as orphans. But some sort of armed resistance would have surely sprung into existence.
I don't want to be unfair or rude here, but to me it seems that you are either deliberately ignoring what people are trying to say in this thread or you're having reading comprehension problems. It has been pointed out several times that things in Syria started out as protests and turned into armed resistance due to use of lethal force to suppress protests. By now it should be clear what we're all trying to say. Using Milošević and his regime as a counter-argument doesn't hold up, precisely because Milošević's dictatorship was quite "benign" compared to extremes such as Syria.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but did they take up arms before or after the brutal response and is the Syrian government legitimate? (my understanding is after and no).
Look at what happened in Libya. Gaddafi spent the last 10 years working with the UN and the US, disarming his country, going on camera shaking hands and smiling with US, French and Italian delegates, ambassadors, and presidents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=856HOHH5UJE Then he became a "despot" overnight that has been torturing and murdering everyone for the last 40 years... First a group of people attacked a milit…
"Gaddafi spent the last 10 years working with the UN and the US"
Yeah, and before those 10 years of rapprochement, Gaddafi was a pariah on the world stage for 30 years, to the West and Arab countries, who allowed terrorists to train on his soil. He is one of the worlds most succesful despots, and one of the least benevolent; he amassed massive fortunes over 40 years of reign, and his people barely benefited from the riches spewing from Libya's earth.
The 10 years of relatively good relations, that was the exception, in 40 years of standing alone being a tyrant no-one cared to much to dislodge until now. Italy was already a partner in its oil-extraction business. Despite the obvious incentives, this really was a case of a long-standing bad guy finally going too far, declaring open war on his own people, threatening to slaughter thousands (literally threatening this). The existence of an organized and geographically defendable opposition, a coastline favouring easy carrier access, and diplomatic support from the Arab league in favour of military intervention, the case for a military reaction was easy to make.
If you're worried about intervention in Syria, I doubt it is being considered so easily. Syria is a far, far more complicated problem, both militarily and politically. Syria has been involved in nearly every major event in the area in the last 60 years.
And really, I'm not sure what your point is in defending an obvious selfish lunatic tyrant.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Under Milosevic there were opposition parties but they had no real chance of assuming power in elections (whether because of election fraud, or because Milosevic had real support, or a little bit of both). All official media channels were controlled by the government and the only choices for opposition at that time had was to either get in bed with the Milosevic and reap some benefits or to organize rallies and prote…
That's precisely the point I was making. Resistance starts with peaceful protests and gets gradually more violent. The "main surge of protests" you're talking about was a lot less peaceful than the initial peaceful protests. It never got to the point of armed resistance, for two reasons: 1) Milošević didn't go around killing ordinary people indiscriminately and 2) the army decided to withdraw its support when he orde…
I am not arguing against anyone's opinion and concede that in Syria it is perhaps too late for "peaceful protests".
But as an outsider I have to rely on "unconfirmed reports", "third party accounts" and "anonymous youtube videos". Watch any newsreel and this is exactly how every report from Syria is prefaced. I'm just trying to remain objective.
Maybe my paranoia has reached unhealthy levels as result of propaganda in my own life but I don't think it's unreasonable to consider exactly how the conflict escalated to this point.
It's a little scary how people are quick to turn on you unless you blindly buy into unconfirmed reports of government snipers indiscriminately taking out civilians. Taking part in this kind of group think puts you on a fast moving train towards a single resolution... when in fact there might be 2 or 3 forks in the road that might result in less collateral damage.
And finally to re-iterate.. I am not arguing that Assad is not a bastard who ordered the troops to shoot on civilians: so far he seems to most definitely be that kind of bastard. I'd just like to retain my ability to keep an open mind and consider all sides of the story. Ok now downvote away.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#48Finally! And I thought intelligence services would never grab that opportunity to paint their activities on Anonymous. Got to give them kudos for coming up with that password thingy as the "convincer".
You don't get points in intel by giving information away. This is the critical juncture of a realignment in a critical region of the world. Not a made for tv movie. I suspect no one is playing fast and loose with this particular situation.
Highly likely it was actually Anon that did this.
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Al-Assad family have been ruling Syria for the past 40 years, so I think it's fair to say that the government is not the most legitimate there is.
I'm sorry I can't find the source now as I heard this on the radio a few days ago, but there was a recent independent poll where over 50% of the polled Syrian citizens were in favour of Assad remaining in power. In fact the poll was specific enough to indicate that this did not mean that these people were strong Assad supporters. But that they merely feared the instability that would arise if Assad the the government…
What power does the queen actually hold?
Re: Bashar Assad emails leaked by Anonymous
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's precisely the point I was making. Resistance starts with peaceful protests and gets gradually more violent. The "main surge of protests" you're talking about was a lot less peaceful than the initial peaceful protests. It never got to the point of armed resistance, for two reasons: 1) Milošević didn't go around killing ordinary people indiscriminately and 2) the army decided to withdraw its support when he orde…
I am not arguing against anyone's opinion and concede that in Syria it is perhaps too late for "peaceful protests". But as an outsider I have to rely on "unconfirmed reports", "third party accounts" and "anonymous youtube videos". Watch any newsreel and this is exactly how every report from Syria is prefaced. I'm just trying to remain objective. Maybe my paranoia has reached unhealthy levels as result of propaganda i…
Now, that I can completely understand and agree with. This is precisely the source of... frustration, to use a mild term, a great part of the world feels towards USA and, to a lesser degree, NATO.
From what I've seen over the years, it's incredibly easy to get people convinced that "we need to send our troops to fight for democracy and freedom". Yes, the world has been peaceful compared to the World War 2, but instead of a great world-wide war, we've been having lots of small wars all over the place. The important thing is that it's "far from home", so everyone can feel both safe and righteous.
And when it turns out that things weren't really the way media reported them, people can have a round of "boo, shame on you government" and cheerfully move on to the next target.
You call it "paranoia", I call it "a healthy dose of skepticism based on empirical evidence", but I've been told it's merely "bitterness" :-P