Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert • Hacker News Board

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#31

Post by Scoundreller » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

raulgalera wrote: post #5

diebeforei485 wrote: post #4

It's a magnificent plane. It's very unfortunate that they launched the "shortened" version. The design and engineering was done for longer fuselage, so it actually has extra structure (and extra weight!) and larger wings than necessary. And it launched just before engines got a lot more efficient. The upside for passengers is that it's still the smoothest flying experience, even in turbulence. Boeing's 747 was incred…

i totally agree re: the smoothest flying experience. the takeoff is so long and smooth you almost don't realize that you're up in the air. it was sad to learn that airlines were trying to get rid of it.

> the takeoff is so long and smooth

Is this another way of saying slow to accelerate?

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#32

Post by anthonyshort » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:27 PM UTC

empressplay wrote: post #22

Having escaped Australia during the middle of the pandemic, I'd like to correct this article: Australia's only long-haul carrier during the pandemic was United. Thanks United for getting me out of Australia!

I believe it was saying that Qantas was the only Australian-owned airline operating long haul flights during the pandemic.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#33

Post by kylehotchkiss » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #4

It's a magnificent plane. It's very unfortunate that they launched the "shortened" version. The design and engineering was done for longer fuselage, so it actually has extra structure (and extra weight!) and larger wings than necessary. And it launched just before engines got a lot more efficient. The upside for passengers is that it's still the smoothest flying experience, even in turbulence. Boeing's 747 was incred…

Emirates, the largest owner of A380s, is asking for a bigger one https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/emirates-boss-tim-clark-o...

Apparently the slot limitations at major city airports are becoming a harder constraint to work with, especially as a larger swatch of Asia gain the ability to travel long haul.

Losing the A380 in 15-20 years is going to make flying between big city pairs more expensive.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#34

Post by kylehotchkiss » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #20

I like the a380 because it treats the lowly economy passenger (i.e., me) the best of all the large planes. It has the most headroom (even though it has two stories) so the cabin feels more airy and less cramped. So this is good news.

I love the A380 but the 787 is pretty cozy on the headroom too. Seems very dependent on the selection of baggage bins the airline makes.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#35

Post by rob74 » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #29

rob74 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not get too carried away, shall we? At least the 346 people that died in the two 737-MAX crashes would probably question your "unqualified success" statement. But yes, no one can deny that the 737 has been a cash cow for Boeing (for far too long, some would say).

The 737 Max has almost nothing to do with the 737. Don't conflate the two.

Do pilots need a different type rating to fly the 737 Max? No? Then it's a bit strange to say that it has nothing to do with the 737...

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#36

Post by beavis000 » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

benjaminwootton wrote: post #30

rootusrootus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A380 is pretty smooth, but I found that the way it cruises is not great for me. It tends to surge and glide in a way that prevents me from actually falling asleep, more so than on other smaller planes like a 787. While the 787 might not be as silky smooth taking off and landing, I prefer it for the long term comfort that matters for most of the flight.

I can feel that glide too. You are flying along, then feel a slight gliding fall, then a wobble. You always feel any turbulence during the glides too. Sorry for the highly technical terms but I agree it is unique to the A380. Apart from this they comfortable to travel and sleep on.

What are "glides"?

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#37

Post by ggm » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #15

diebeforei485 wrote: post #4

It's a magnificent plane. It's very unfortunate that they launched the "shortened" version. The design and engineering was done for longer fuselage, so it actually has extra structure (and extra weight!) and larger wings than necessary. And it launched just before engines got a lot more efficient. The upside for passengers is that it's still the smoothest flying experience, even in turbulence. Boeing's 747 was incred…

>Boeing's 747 was incredibly profitable at the time, so it cross-subsidized other aircraft like the 737 (which competed with the A320). Launching the A380 countered that effect, and it made all segments more competitive. It all comes down to fuel prices. Lamenting for the age of the 747 is the same as missing those boat size finned Cadillacs. It was another era. The ETOPS ratings of modern engines and fuel efficiency…

The 380 will not be a significant player in freight for a very long time. It can't operate the same services a 747 freight unit can, door loading efficiencies. The drivers cabin is up top in a 747 so you have clear run into the main loading bay. the 380 can't do that because the bus driver sits in a half-level in front of both upper and lower floors so there's only side-door loading.

Yes. We all saw 380's loaded to the gunnels with PPE during covid. No, that doesn't mean they are all going to wind up doing freight. What I read suggests it will carry less, or only very close to a 747 in most cases.

It's working fine in long haul passenger roles and will continue to work well for state funded airlines like Singapore and Emirates as well as ANZ and Qantas and China Southern (they've pulled out now). BA and other European carriers are a bit half-pregnant on it. Singapore and Emirates alone probably have 1/2 of the entire fleet worldwide. QANTAS has 10, maybe options on 2 more. Its fleet looks to be moving all airbus with the recent purchases, Jetstar run the 787.

At one point Emirates flew their mostly empty 380s from Brisbane to Auckland to park: it was cheaper considering all the economics, and the opportunistic passenger load you can pick up there, than parking in Brisbane. I am sure it wasn't literally "parking fees" but I flew that segment a few times and it was less than 20% load both ways.

The lack of US market isn't impacting it's viability in other segments. Shutting down the line was a mistake in my opinion, but I'm not an economist. That said, the other lines (350, &c) are running fine.

The a350 is a better craft than the b777 for passengers. Engine noise and seat economics. I've done 7+ international (AU to USA and Europe) flights a year for the last 20 years and so as a passenger I think I can compare aircraft experience. I am told in engine burn its better too but the differences here would go to TCO and I can't comment, I don't run an airline. If you have to do the operations research on buy new, lease new, buy old, lease old, outsource, insource, end-of-life retained value, flight profiles, load, its all complicated.

It's too easy to claim "this aircraft is better" when you're an armchair planner.

All major aircraft are state subsidised in development no matter how hard Boeing or Airbus try to mask it.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#38

Post by joncrane » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

beavis000 wrote: post #36

benjaminwootton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can feel that glide too. You are flying along, then feel a slight gliding fall, then a wobble. You always feel any turbulence during the glides too. Sorry for the highly technical terms but I agree it is unique to the A380. Apart from this they comfortable to travel and sleep on.

What are "glides"?

The flying equivalent to a car coasting.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#39

Post by hinata08 » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

InTheArena wrote: post #8

diebeforei485 wrote: post #4

It's a magnificent plane. It's very unfortunate that they launched the "shortened" version. The design and engineering was done for longer fuselage, so it actually has extra structure (and extra weight!) and larger wings than necessary. And it launched just before engines got a lot more efficient. The upside for passengers is that it's still the smoothest flying experience, even in turbulence. Boeing's 747 was incred…

The A380 was Airbus trying to out-American the Americans, by being the biggest plane, and by betting big on mega-hubs like Dubai, Heathrow, and LAX. There was a great paper that argued that Airbus could only do so because the risk of the decision was mitigated by government launch aid. Airbus's view of the market was wrong, and instead, we have the rise of more city pairs. Not small cities certainly - but right now,…

I wonder about statistics for hub vs pairs

Airlines line Turkish seem to do well, with their shinny new super hub in Istanbul.

There can only be so much pair to pair flight, so we will always have some hub airlines.

I took Nice to Manila last year. Friends of mines flew from random town in France to Abu Dhabi, through Istanbul. On my flight to Istanbul, I talked to passengers going to a random town in Egypt for diving & friends holiday.

And I also saw students (or at least young ppl) going to Japan on my flight. A stopover probably made the flight more fuel economic, hence cheaper, which is great for a lot of flyers.

I was also glad to stop midflight to wait at the warm water fountain with Chinese ppl (who were wondering why a gringo was having a warm glass of water), to stretch my legs, and to change and everything. More than 10 hours of a single flight is unbearable.

I have no doubt that city pairs flights are hotter atm, and you will always have flights between your home city and trendy destinations like the famous Montréal or the infamous USA from now on.

But for all of these reasons and more, I don't believe hub airlines are doomed.

Re: Qantas is bringing back Airbus A380s from the California desert

#40

Post by rob74 » Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

S201 wrote: post #16

rconti wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for the "they launched the shortened version"? I've never heard that before. Interesting.

It's not so much as there is a "longer version" designed and sitting around, but more that the wings were built with a potential future, longer fuselage variant in mind. This is more evident if you look at a top-down view of it and note that the wing-to-fuselage ratio is higher than that of other planes, similar to how the 747-SP looks much shorter in length than its wings should be designed for. There's more details…

Or, to quote the Wikipedia article directly:

> The A380's wings are sized for a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) over 650 tonnes to accommodate these [larger] future versions, albeit with some internal strengthening required on the A380F freighter. The optimal wingspan for this weight is about 90 m (300 ft), but airport restrictions have limited it to less than 80 m (260 ft), thereby lowering the aspect ratio to 7.8 which reduces fuel efficiency by about 10% and increases operating costs a few percent, given that fuel costs constitute about 50% of the cost of long-haul aeroplane operation.