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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

oceanservice.noaa.gov

541–550 of 636 posts

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#541

Because the words come from Dutch nautical terms. “Starboard” is really “Steer-board”, an external keel on one side of a boat. Therefore Port is the only side of the boat that can dock to the port.

The old Norse term "stjόrnborði" likely predates the dutch and old English terms, fwiw.

Stjόrn means stern, so the back of the boat. I'm guess borði refers to the rudder itself, meaning plank.

From what I gather the OP story is bunk. It's easy to verify.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#542
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In French, starboard and port are "tribord" (same etymology as "starboard", through Dutch) and "bâbord" ("back (of the oarman) board"). On stage, they are "côté cour" and "côté jardin" because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left.

In English, there's an archaic "larboard" meaning "port side". My understanding is that this word was intentionally banished due to confusion originating from the sound being so similar to "starboard".

this is mentioned in the linked article

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it has to do with how many frames of reference you're juggling in a task/profession. With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame. Then there's space, where it gets even more fun, as the relevant frames - the ship, the orbit (or the "centre of gravity" of everything pulling on you) - are completely independent. That is…

The convention for orbital spacecraft is that the local coordinate system has +z facing whatever it is orbiting and +x facing travel direction. Then you can refer to directions relative to the spacecraft such as "+x", "-y", etc. The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth. The payload bay was +z direction. From the layperson's point of view, the shuttle orbited…

>> The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth

That wasn't a choice. The doors had to remain open and pointing away from the earth so that the radiators could properly dissipate heat. It also, in theory, kept the most important thermal tiles pointing away from incoming space rocks.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#544

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective. I was recently involved in a case where a patient decided that their left should be called the right side during a phone consultation as that would help their doctor. Good times.

I have heard stories of patients, entirely on their own, using black markers to indicate which leg/arm was to be operated upon. Surgeons are entirely OK with this. They appreciate it. I also heard a legend of a patient who themselves marked the wrong leg. This wasn't discovered until after sedation. The procedure was canceled until everything was clarified.

When having my arm x-rayed years ago they places a small pad with an embedded metal "L" to indicate that it was my left arm. But if you place the L backwards, then they will think the image has been reversed, which just makes everything more complicated. So the L-pad needed "this side up" label.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#545
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mexican spanish should not be the reference for what is said in spanish

Why not? https://www.statista.com/statistics/991020/number-native-spa...

because numbers don't matter. Just like Quebecois would not be the reference for the French language, even if it somehow outgrew the French speaking population in France

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convention for orbital spacecraft is that the local coordinate system has +z facing whatever it is orbiting and +x facing travel direction. Then you can refer to directions relative to the spacecraft such as "+x", "-y", etc. The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth. The payload bay was +z direction. From the layperson's point of view, the shuttle orbited…

>> The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth That wasn't a choice. The doors had to remain open and pointing away from the earth so that the radiators could properly dissipate heat. It also, in theory, kept the most important thermal tiles pointing away from incoming space rocks.

> The doors had to remain open and pointing away from the earth

It's the opposite. The orbiter usually kept it doors pointed toward Earth and the "bottom" tiles pointed away from Earth, and orbited with its engines pointed prograde. (Upside-down and backward relative to the atmospheric flight people are familiar with)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/12321/why-did-the-...

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#547
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame. There's windward (towards/upwind) and leeward (away/downwind). Are there left and right too? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windward_and_leeward

What matters to sailors with respect to the wind is the angle which it meets the boat or the orientation of the boat with regard to the direction of the wind. For that there are dedicated names known as the points of sail which include: close hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach, run, and in irons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail

Good point! :)

But points of sail don't have any handedness, correct? I.e. they're mirrored on both sides of the wind.

As mentioned in another comment, tacking (with its active directionality) is probably the closest to handed-terminology.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#548
post #2

"Driver" and "passenger" side for cars. Oh wait, doesn't work in England etc. I guess for ships there is no variation between countries? Starboard is presumably where the wheel was so everyone must have left it on the right side?

I've always assumed that "driver" and "passenger" were simply reversed for England, etc. I'd reverse it for postal trucks, after all, or cars imported from England and such.

Right, that was my point. The article says that port/starboard is used because left/right is confusing depending on the direction. But unlike ships cars have the driver side right or left so it's not that useful.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convention for orbital spacecraft is that the local coordinate system has +z facing whatever it is orbiting and +x facing travel direction. Then you can refer to directions relative to the spacecraft such as "+x", "-y", etc. The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth. The payload bay was +z direction. From the layperson's point of view, the shuttle orbited…

That's a convention, but hardly the convention. I used to work satellite navigation for NOAA. For the GOES sats we often used Intrack (Prograde/Retrograde), Crosstrack (Normal/Anti-normal), and Radial (Towards planet/away from). I don't think anyone really referred to any directions as "plus x" or "minus y"

There are different conventions, yes. Even for the shuttle I've seen +z point in the opposite direction in some documents. I work in systems engineering so I'm less exposed to terms used in operations and more in discussions about which part of the spacecraft things are located.

Actually I work on rovers and it's a perennial debate whether to follow spacecraft convention (+z is down) or automotive convention (+z is up). Then mechanical engineers will usually follow what is intuitive on the screen (+z is forward). This is because computer graphics convention is +z facing out of the screen.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#550
These seem no less confusing honestly (do they still load from the "port" side? What about yachts?). They reference a particular side of the boat but as referenced to a specific spot on the boat (where the steering is or was in the past). If you are not standing there, you still need to do some mapping in your head.
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