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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#511

Post by lynguist »

wazoox wrote: post #418
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

In French, starboard and port are "tribord" (same etymology as "starboard", through Dutch) and "bâbord" ("back (of the oarman) board"). On stage, they are "côté cour" and "côté jardin" because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left.

In German it’s Steuerbord (meaning the same as starboard) and Backbord (compare Middle Low German ba(c)kbōrt and Dutch bakboort; oldest mention of this form is from old English: bæcbord!)

The word ‘back’ in German meaning ‘back’ in English doesn’t even exist. Only in this one loanword from Low German.

Only today I looked up this word, I never knew or understood that Backbord is literally backboard.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#512

Post by ubermonkey »

noduerme wrote: post #139
jdietrich wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.

I thought it would be difficult when I bought a car in Australia to manage shifting with my left hand, but it turned out to be surprisingly easy. I had been under the impression for some reason that the clutch would be controlled with the right foot. Thank God the pedals are in the same places.

Yeah, it's a relief to discover that the driver's cockpit (for lack of a better term) is just moved side-to-side wholesale and not flipped -- EXCEPT for the shifter, which remains in the middle.

I was surprised how easily my body got used to left-hand shifting, but I will say this: I've been driving stick shifts for nearly 40 years, and never miss a gear in the US. However, driving in the UK I find that left hand is NOWHERE NEARLY AS GOOD at distinguishing 1st from 3rd as my right is. Muscle memory!

Steering-column manual shifting (e.g. "three on the tree") is pretty much extinct today, but I assume that the "move the whole driver section over" thing means that column-shifted manuals in the UK were still shifted with the right hand. Does anyone know?

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#513

Post by red-iron-pine »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #502
wazoox wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In French, starboard and port are "tribord" (same etymology as "starboard", through Dutch) and "bâbord" ("back (of the oarman) board"). On stage, they are "côté cour" and "côté jardin" because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left.

In English, there's an archaic "larboard" meaning "port side". My understanding is that this word was intentionally banished due to confusion originating from the sound being so similar to "starboard".

Makes good sense. Imagine trying to scream that to someone at night in a storm after you've both had a ration of rum.

Probably a non-trivial number of people were hurt or killed because of that linguistic similarity; we see the same with air traffic control and pilots using ambiguous language.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#514

Post by mudita »

antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

The German theatre world developed the opposite convention, “Bühne links” (literally "stage left”) means left from the perspective of the audience.

I don’t know so much about the theatre world, I’m a professional dancer, but at least the dance scene is increasingly international, switching fluently between English or German depending on the people present; some people learned the English/international convention, some - especially older - directors know mainly the German convention, some people are not aware that there are different conventions in English and German and the result is complete chaos.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#515

Post by johnwalkr »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #448
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

I suppose it has to do with how many frames of reference you're juggling in a task/profession. With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame. Then there's space, where it gets even more fun, as the relevant frames - the ship, the orbit (or the "centre of gravity" of everything pulling on you) - are completely independent. That is…

The convention for orbital spacecraft is that the local coordinate system has +z facing whatever it is orbiting and +x facing travel direction. Then you can refer to directions relative to the spacecraft such as "+x", "-y", etc.

The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth. The payload bay was +z direction. From the layperson's point of view, the shuttle orbited upside down, but from an aerospace engineer's point of view it orbited right side up and landed upside down.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#516

Post by vidarh »

denton-scratch wrote: post #470
yobbo wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name of Thor's hammer "mjolnir" (as english speakers would see it) did not come through latin though, so the version of the word in germanic languages was inherited independently. "Mjolnir" means something like "crusher" and the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up". For example, it can be combined as vetemjöl (wheat flour) or stenmjöl (ground stone or stone powder).

> the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up" Ah - "mjol" as flour must be cognate with "meal". I hadn't previously associated meal with mills, but it makes sense.

Meal appears to be a cognate of Old Norse "mál" ("mål", "måltid" - meal, meal time - in modern Norwegian) rather than mjol. Compare also Mehl (flour) vs Mahl (meal) in German.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#517

Post by jen20 »

jacquesm wrote: post #506
CWuestefeld wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said elsewhere, but I think it's worth repeating here - In an effort to avoid ambiguity, I always talk to my doctor in terms of "driver's side" and "passenger side" - thus adopting the maritime approach, but in more common terms.

Until you call a doctor in the UK.

To whit, having learned to drive on the left, the “easy” turn that does not cross traffic is always a “left” turn to me, regardless of living in a country that drives on the right. Makes giving directions to others quite interesting.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#518

Post by amalcon »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #501
tomxor wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a particularly strange kind of overthinking, implicitly acknowledging the medical field is complex enough to consult a professional, and yet thinking something as common and (relatively) simple as interpreting left/right from patient descriptions hasn't already been considered. That's before even getting into the assumption of face to face orientation over a phone... is that in virtual terms, or in terms of ab…

As I said elsewhere, but I think it's worth repeating here - In an effort to avoid ambiguity, I always talk to my doctor in terms of "driver's side" and "passenger side" - thus adopting the maritime approach, but in more common terms.

I just try to prepend "my". It's usually natural to do this anyway ("my left knee" e.g.) but can always be done ("I fell to my left" instead of "I fell to the left").

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#519

Post by johnwalkr »

tomxor wrote: post #483
lostlogin wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective. I was recently involved in a case where a patient decided that their left should be called the right side during a phone consultation as that would help their doctor. Good times.

That's a particularly strange kind of overthinking, implicitly acknowledging the medical field is complex enough to consult a professional, and yet thinking something as common and (relatively) simple as interpreting left/right from patient descriptions hasn't already been considered. That's before even getting into the assumption of face to face orientation over a phone... is that in virtual terms, or in terms of ab…

It reminds me of a lot of hackernews comments on technical topics from non-software fields.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#520

Post by soylentcola »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #437
marvin wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium. My French relatives ho…

> the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine Casein was not discovered before cheese was. 'kase' doesn't refer to casein. Casein, the family of proteins, is named after cheese, the milk product consisting in large part of those proteins. And 'kase' is not a Germanic root. Fromage descends from the Latin word for "shape". 'kase' descends from the Latin word for "cheese". > There are two conclusions…

Is this why cheese (I believe via Roman Latin) is also 'cacio'?

I'm only familiar due to 'cacio a pepe'.

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