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Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#161
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole activism thing doesent do a lot anymore, since the social plaza belongs to cooperate and the state, and activism was shown to be easy exhaustable compared to the endurance of lobbyism aka cooperate activism. Future frustrated voices will turn straight to violence and skip this unproducitve state of affairs.

> the social plaza belongs to cooperate and the state I think it's too easy to just blame corporations and governments for this. They are definitely part in this, but a large part of lack of activism around climate change is also the people themselves who don't want to change. The Netherlands is a great example where, in recent elections, nearly half of votes went to political parties that want to reduce response to…

> Even the most environmentally aware people around me pretty much just eat less meat, but they haven't actually changed their ways. So I don't expect the average F150 driving steak eater to suddenly start changing their ways.

What do you expect people in general to do? Granted, driving an F150 is not an environmentally friendly activity, but suppose they all cut their "carbon footprint" [0] by 50%. How much would that help?

The answer is actually "not much." It turns out that 70% of greenhouse emissions have come from ~100 corporations. [1] Until we, collectively, do something about their practices, there's precious little that individuals can do to get us to net zero.

Individuals have no power to influence corporations in this way, either. It needs to come from things like carbon taxes -- and not just from one country, but worldwide.

There's far more that can be said here, but I think I've successfully conveyed the point: feeling hopeless in the face of all this is actually pretty logical. At this point, we really are basically doomed to suffer the effects of 1.5 degrees of warming, and possibly much more, no matter what we do right now.

I don't want to oversell this to the point of saying we should all just roll over and die; by all means, we should all work on reducing our consumption, because at this point, the choices that are going to provide us a better future in the next couple of decades are essentially those that reduce consumption. The other alternatives are reducing the number of people on Earth, or drastically increasing energy efficiency across the board. A couple decades' worth of energy efficiency increases isn't going to do it, and if we choose not to reduce consumption, the effects of climate change will ensure that the number of people on Earth decreases, whether we like it or not.

So, we're essentially left at reducing consumption. But, as you've mentioned, people don't seem to want to do that. I don't know how to deal with that at a personal level, myself. Do you? Is it any wonder teenagers don't?

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[0]: Make no mistake, this is just a propaganda term intended to blame you and not the actual (mostly corporate) actors responsible for making most of the emissions.

[1]: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-pe...

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#162
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems perfectly contradictory to me, "We need to shelter our kids from the big bad social media because they are too fragile to handle it"

Right and "We need to shelter our kids from crack cocaine because they are too fragile to handle it" is perfectly contradictory too.

If the person saying that had been previously famous for calling for the legalisation of cannabis, and wrote a whole book about how the war on drugs was misguided and led to terrible outcomes and then never addressed the obvious overlap between the two stances, that would also be strange.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If children/teens weren't exposed to so much online doom-mongering, they would be finding things to live for rather than fearing the future. Even if the world is a bit shit, there's still plenty of opportunities for love, family, friendship, art, music, sport, and plenty more. Maybe even working towards solving one of the big problems we face, whether that's through science/tech or politics/economics?

It's exactly this "we didn't start the fire" mentality that caused the situation we're in. If you want the world to change, you need to do that. You can't just wait for it to happen.

The Internet, through social media and clickbait news, encourages people to get ever-angrier and ever-more-radical until they attempt to 'change things' by smashing and burning, or justifying violence against political 'enemies'.

I don't know what the answers to the world's big problems are, but I'm pretty sure that smashing, burning, and pushing for violent revolution, insurrection, or civil war is not the answer.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think social media amplified trends that were there before. I remember when I came to the US in 2000 it was pretty fashionable to say “I am angry” all the time. And the hatred at politicians was pretty pronounced too. And the cable news was already spreading fear and anger. Personally I think modern media starting with cable TV allowed hatemongers to easily reach large groups. The internet just made it much worse.…

24 hour cable news, where news became entertainment, definitely sowed the seeds of this. There is a great movie from the 70s called Network that predicted the slide of society in this direction.

If anyone has ever heard, "I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this any more!", this is the movie that originated from.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#165
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Anti” coddling to me is rejecting the notion of participation trophies, emphasizing in a healthy way losing and winning. Pushing through discomfort and, god forbid, seeking out discomfort. Being OK and perhaps wanting discomfort. Knowing that discomfort is 9/10 a healthy stress that builds you. Not playing the victim. Taking responsibility for your circumstances, no matter how shit of a hand you were dealt. Yeah it…

> Not playing the victim. Taking responsibility for your circumstances, no matter how shit of a hand you were dealt. Basically, gaslight yourself into believing that other peoples actions are your fault? Sometimes you are in fact a victim of something, no matter how uncomfortable that thought makes Haidt feel. > Sometimes things suck, and sometimes things are sad, and that’s okay. Common notion in many cultures is yo…

This is a very uncharitable interpretation. If anything, parent is saying that staying engaged and not giving up just because an issue came up, is a positive, valuable and, most importantly, not passive at all. In other words, if you can't even deal with the problem you received, how are you even begin to 'improve things' overall? You can't even handle your own circumstance to a reasonable degree.

It is easy to generalize ( see? ) and be cynical.

Is it maybe because it seems to have better outcomes?

Is having a dad and a mom so bad that you cannot accept those positive outcomes ( and I can easily grant there are bad ones as well )?

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#166
People always say correlation does not equal causation but they never mention how does one determine causation definitively?

Unlike typical observational science, causation must be established by having the experimenter intervene with the experiment himself. The experimenter must introduce or remove smart phones to the population being experimented on and record any changes to the data.

So it's actually very possible for the author to prove his own theory beyond reasonable doubt.

These are the 2 options I can think of that can be done individually or together:

   1. Remove smart phones away from people who are depressed. Measure depression levels over time.

   2. Pick a set of humans that don't use smart phones and choose who will have access to smart phones and who never will over a period of 5 or 10 years. Measure depression levels over time.
We have procedures in place to prove things like this with medicine. I think it's very possible to conduct experiments like this with the rigor of clinical trials given that you can literally remove or introduce the predicted causative agent from any human: smart phones.

It's worth it to mention here that not all things are amenable to causative experiments. I believe in climate change but it is not possible to run a causative experiment where you remove or introduce the causative agent: greenhouse gases. It is unfortunate that climate change cannot be established as true beyond reasonable doubt simply because all current evidence is correlative.

But for smart phones it is very very possible for the author to go far beyond a retort and actually prove his claims correct.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#167

As a parent. It's a hard topic. And not black and white. For the 10+ crowd, the days of kids roaming the streets, finding their friends and playing are gone. I think the causes for this are complicated, and social media (and screens) are just one part of the puzzle. Consider a few things: 1. The percentage of households with kids has gradually declined over time, while the percentage of retirees has gone up. So you j…

This is the inevitable conclusions of stranger danger and car-based suburbanization.

When people only access the world via car and avoid walking around, they never build familiarity with their own neighborhood. All locations worth stepping out of the car for, are miles away and behind security gates. Low density also means that 1 stranger can actually do damage, unlike dense areas where there are at least a few strangers within earshot.

Suburbanization inevitably caused stranger danger. Once public trust was eroded, only known parents could be trusted to supervise children. The coldness towards strangers goes both ways. 'Strange children' near you were seen as something between an annoyance and a liability. With multi-income households, the only location where children were safe and tolerated, was friends houses or ones with paid strict supervision. So, the kids retreated into indoor activities or found themselves at mandatory hobbies, a term that sounds dystopian even as I type it out.

Social media has virally encroached into every aspect of these children's lives. But, lets not pretend that North American society didn't lay down ground work, fertilizer and all, for this travesty to take place.

People are the river and built infrastructure is the path of least resistance. Once built, the river will meander down that path, irrespective of human effort to affect outcomes counter to the built infrastructure.

___

I grew up in a dense Asian city famous for a culture of 'leaving you alone = independence' (in comparison to the rest of the nation). Even then, I knew the faces of every small store owner within 5 minutes of my house and vice-verse, and that's because I walked by them everyday. When everyone leaves home from the same door (the building exit) and walks back in through the same door, you inevitably have small talk and get to know your neighbors.

The public ground was nearby, so all parents would swing by to check-in on kids as they passed by during the day. This meant that the older kids were familiar and parents felt confident in leaving their younger children under their supervision, in return for complete freedom in terms of how the kids spent their time.

North America has no thirds spaces, thinning mom-n-pops stores and a lack of public shared spaces. North America seems to have completely forgotten that it takes a village to raise a child.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#168

Just to levy a single criticism among several: I find Haidt’s rebuttal of the climate change hypothesis unconvincing: fears around climate change are not “energizing” in the way that prior crises are, in a significant part because public sentiment around climate change is that we’re already doomed in a way that isn’t really possible with social crises. Similarly: I don’t think most teenage girls were voraciously read…

It might be worth considering other crises and their impact on teen mental health. I grew up in the UK in the 80s during two crises. First, it was the Cold War and there was a very real risk of nuclear Armageddon; we were all aware of it because it was all over the media. Second, it was the height of IRA bombing campaign in the UK and we heard of children our age being blown to bits while out shopping with their parents, etc. But in spite of those risks, which did impact adolescents, there was no massive uptick in mental illness.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#169
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole activism thing doesent do a lot anymore, since the social plaza belongs to cooperate and the state, and activism was shown to be easy exhaustable compared to the endurance of lobbyism aka cooperate activism. Future frustrated voices will turn straight to violence and skip this unproducitve state of affairs.

> the social plaza belongs to cooperate and the state I think it's too easy to just blame corporations and governments for this. They are definitely part in this, but a large part of lack of activism around climate change is also the people themselves who don't want to change. The Netherlands is a great example where, in recent elections, nearly half of votes went to political parties that want to reduce response to…

> The Netherlands is a great example where, in recent elections, nearly half of votes went to political parties that want to reduce response to climate change and other environmental issues.

But is that an anti-environment stance or an anti-big-green stance? I can understand people being sick of the mishandling of the crisis that is being funded with their money.

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