The Windows 11 Trash Party • Hacker News Board

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#411

Post by herbst » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

ParetoOptimal wrote: post #380

Dalewyn wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all its faults, Windows is the only operating system that manages to balance practicality, versatility, customizability, and reliability all in one single operating system. Linux? The fucking thing breaks down if you so much as look at it wrong. No reliability, zilch, nada, /dev/null. I don't trust Linux with anything mission critical, unless I'm paying someone monies to make sure my time isn't wasted (eg: Red Ha…

> Linux? The fucking thing breaks down if you so much as look at it wrong. No reliability, zilch, nada, /dev/null. I don't trust Linux with anything mission critical, unless I'm paying someone monies to make sure my time isn't wasted (eg: Red Hat, Synology, Steam Deck). From the mention of Steam Deck I'm going to guess most of the "breaks down if you so much as look at it wrong" is from graphics related stuff? Or may…

Ubuntu is IMO far from the best choice. Even manjaro offers a more stable experience at times. Fedora is what i install newbies today.

Edit:// to be more precise I use Ubuntu LTS on servers because it's stable and runs everything. But as soon as we get graphical there are better choices

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#412

Post by soylentcola » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #269

WWLink wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. It's an OS created for enterprise corporations to support and manage the actions of their employees in a digital world. First and foremost. Most MS products are. The ad platform is MS trying to find ways to continue growing profits. :D

My assumption is they want to pivot into Windows being really free of charge, with it monetised through advertising. Putting all this junk into the Start menu is testing the waters.

If they must go that route, I sincerely hope they offer a paid SKU in the traditional $100-200 range that dispenses with all of that. It's kinda icky, but if they want to offer a Pro version that's all clean and tidy for money, and a crappy, ad-laden version for free...I don't want to think of all the shitty bargain PCs people will be stuck with, but at least I'll be able to keep building a new PC every 8-10 years with whatever hardware I choose and include a Windows license as part of the parts list.

Make this ad-supported version a budget option for people who can't afford more and won't install Linux if you must hit that market. Just don't ruin the whole thing for those of us who will pay a modest amount for hardware and software compatibility.

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#413

Post by bodge5000 » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

somat wrote: post #354

0000000000100 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even doing it the opposite way around still doesn't work (installing Windows first, and then replacing the Windows bootloader). Every time there is a Windows update that is "major" enough, it will wipe the existing Linux bootloader. I lived like that for about a year, but eventually just gave up and stuck to Windows. I like Linux a lot, but I've found that I save more time using Windows then trying to get Linux to wo…

I gave up on duel boot a long time ago, Each operating system gets it's own drive. Like you said duel boot was always breaking.

Sadly it seems that the issues they're talking about persist even with each OS getting its own drive. I know I've had issues with that. It seems insane that Windows should overreach onto drives its not even installed on, but here we are.

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#414

Post by badloginagain » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #409

otikik wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t the “advertising platform” part always suck, though? What I mean is that the problem is not an “identity crisis”. It’s that it’s becoming enshittified.

I agree. I don't think Microsoft is confused - Windows is becoming an advertising/"service" platform. This is entirely intentional. I also don't think that product managers or executives think of themselves as building an "OS" anymore. That's a very technical way of looking at the product vs. whatever business buzzwords at in vogue.

Which is insane to think about given the hard open-source "engineer first" pivot Satya has taken the company.

It's like Windows team is committed to building the complete antithesis of that vision.

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#415

Post by al2o3cr » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

nstart wrote: post #31

Windows is my daily driver. I actually like the OS but Microsoft would do well to listen to these concerns being raised consistently. They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. This reminds me of the days where Ballmers goal seemed to be to lock everyone into Windows and MS products when the real upside turned out to be “make MS products fully available where people already ar…

    They need to ask some deep questions of themselves
    of what they want Windows to be.

They did - and the answer was "an advertising puke-funnel"

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#416

Post by zerkten » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

gyulai wrote: post #206

smaudet wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is somewhat strange then that enterprise linux is not more common, you get stability and configurability. I mostly put this down to bad salesmanship/C*s tending to be effectively technological cavemen...perhaps there are backroom deals we are not privy to, though.

> It is somewhat strange then that enterprise linux is not more common, you get stability and configurability. Subjectively, I am under the impression that, in the enterprise desktop space, Linux is a more serious competitor to Windows than mac OS is. For example in public administration: At one point the city government of Munich had replaced over 12000 desktops from Windows to Linux [1], and you keep seeing ideas t…

>> Meanwhile, an enterprise running hundreds or even thousands of mac OS devices is something I've never heard of.

Your experience doesn't match with reality. There are multiple sources available describing the growth in macOS usage. One that's quoted in news reports, but hidden behind a paywall, is an IDC report from 2021[1].

It describes macOS penetration at ~23% in 2020 up 6% from 2019. The is supported by descriptions of the impact on enterprise end-user computing management teams that historically have only supported Windows. You can even look at the growth of Intune, and the breadth of acquisitions by Microsoft, to see that Microsoft is very likely supporting 1000s of mac devices.

An important element of how we got here is mobile. Windows had made huge investments in configuration management while OS X was an oddball. Managing it required a different set of tools. iOS and Android adoption in many enterprises caused an end run around the end-user computing gatekeepers from 2007-2012 with a proliferation in MDM solutions.

This eventually led to standardization of so-called "modern" configuration management API/interfaces/tools. The door was opened to more Mac adoption through Apple Business Manager while admins had already adopted modern management tools that covered Windows and mobile.

This doesn't discount the challenge with some users needing to use legacy Windows software. Once upon a time this was a strong moat. For years, IT have been under pressure to make this work on mobile (where feasible) which has cut down the blockers on macOS or Linux usage.

[1] https://www.idc.com/research/viewtoc.jsp?containerId=US46965...

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#417

Post by bdavbdav » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #352

bdavbdav wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised at that on the reliability front - things are a fuss to get going, but if you're on a LTS version of whatever-distro, its usually pretty rock-solid (hence why its powering everything you look at...)

I'm surprised that it is a fuss to get going! Installing Linux with a full basic suite of applications takes around half an hour. Same thing on Windows takes about half a day for me, and involves hunting for drivers and so on... Maybe much is simply what you are used to.

I think I may have been trying to appeal to the masses - would agree, seems to be a lot more straightforward installing linux. The installer "Just works" (try pointing windows setup at a disk with something it doesn't understand on it...), and the driver support is generally fantastic. When you do need proprietary drivers, its generally taken care of too (thinking of NVidia etc)

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#418

Post by bdavbdav » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

trelane wrote: post #406

bdavbdav wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised at that on the reliability front - things are a fuss to get going, but if you're on a LTS version of whatever-distro, its usually pretty rock-solid (hence why its powering everything you look at...)

Tip: there's much, much less fuss if you not it preinstalled, with support.

I'm not sure I count "Have you tried sfc /scannow?" as support!

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#419

Post by TheRealDunkirk » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

conradfr wrote: post #378

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would quibble about the fact that the screenshot functionality was stolen from macOS, but the thing that really kills me is your comment about File Explorer. My impression, after decades of Windows and now a decade of macOS, is that you just don't have to spend as much time with Finder in macOS as you do with Explorer on Windows. There's something about working on a Mac that simply alleviates a lot of the work of f…

Not OP but I hate Finder. I just want to see my folders and access them, let me do that ffs, why does that left panel hate me?

I guess this is what makes the world go 'round, because I say the same thing about the left panel on Windows. From versions 7 through 10, that thing was a freaking nightmare. They seem to have cleaned it up a lot, but there's still a dedicated folder for "3D Models." Seriously?

Re: The Windows 11 Trash Party

#420

Post by TheRealDunkirk » Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 2:27 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #373

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I long for the day when someone will dissect the numbers, and show how much of Windows' vaunted desktop share is due to corporate licenses. I think it would show that -- when people are buying with their own money -- they're preferring Macs 2-to-1 over PC's now.

when people are buying with their own money -- they're preferring Macs 2-to-1 over PC's now. I suspect that most people actually spending their own money are spending less than $1000, which more or less puts Apple out of the running.

And I suspect that the majority of people looking for sub-$1,000 computers are buying iPads, not crappy plastic HP's.