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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

joannejacobs.com

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#481

Post by TimTheTinker »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #479
TimTheTinker wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a wonderful world. It's totally within our capabilities and no one need suffer. I get really scared when I hear anyone promise utopia. Literally every large-scale society that did turned into a hellscape after a while, and the idea itself never worked. There was always someone who didn't buy into the idea, and they were blamed for why it didn't work. "If only those people were gone, then this would work and we…

Interesting, China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time. I wasn't suggesting a Utopia, merely raising the bar so the minimum level is better than it is now, surely that should be the goal of every advanced country. The current levels of poverty are negatively influencing the next generation.

> China has managed to lift a large proportion of its citizens in a very short time

You're conveniently ignoring the cultural revolution, which caused an ideological purity spiral resulting in millions dead.

China only began to prosper when they relaxed their economic policies and began to allow property/business ownership and international trade (especially with the West) back in.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#482

Post by SideQuark »

yakubin wrote: post #380
SideQuark wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every free college country sends less of their people through college than the US. Is that the outcome we want? Fewer educated?

Lithuania and Poland say hello: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_... >

That's 2014 data. Here's 2022 Poland data. https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

Lithuania doesn't have free college https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#483

Post by SideQuark »

leoedin wrote: post #332
SideQuark wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every free college country sends less of their people through college than the US. Is that the outcome we want? Fewer educated?

Maybe? The idea that "more formal education is better" is kind of silly when you dig into it. What value does it give society to have a huge percentage of people spend some of their most important years learning things which are completely perpendicular to whatever career they might do? Education at this point feels like exploitation. We tell people that they can achieve greatness, they just have to pay huge amounts…

> Maybe? The idea that "more formal education is better" is kind of silly when you dig into it

If you believe that is true, then why would a country want to pay for it? After all, the world isn't limited to your strawmen.

The reason it's valuable to countries the world over, why so many want to pay for it, and why most all of them provide some level of public paid education, is it demonstrably results in a population that ends up with a higher standard of living.

Dont believe it? Simply check Google scholar.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#484

Post by rahimnathwani »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #96
KiranRao0 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect small class sizes to be considerably more expensive.

How much do school districts in California spend (as a percentage of total budget) on staffers who do not teach children directly? If it is (for the sake of argument) a quarter of the budget, then I ask would 33% more funding be able to shrink class sizes to a degree that would meet your approval? If instead it were half the budget, would a 100% increase in funding not be able to shrink the class sizes enough? Does a…

> How much do school districts in California spend (as a percentage of total budget) on staffers who do not teach children directly?

Probably over half.

I downloaded the 2020 data for SFUSD from https://transparentcalifornia.com/. According to those data, only 45% of SFUSD's spend on pay & benefits goes to people whose job category contains the string 'eacher'.

Another 4.5% do to people whose job title contains the string 'incipal'.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#485

Post by IIsi50MHz »

phonon wrote: post #471
v0idzer0 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People generally do what is expected of them. If you’re dropped into a class with higher expectations, you perform better. Lower expectations and you perform worse. We are all optimized to do what’s required of us and conserve excess energy.

Or you find the difficulty is too high, and you drop out.

Or too low, and you mentally check out.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#486

Post by ElFitz »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #435
ElFitz wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some countries even pay students to attend their highest ranking engineering schools.

>highest ranking engineering By defintion some of the highest performing students who must compete for entry. These are not apples alike.

This is what I was answering to:

> (Side note, this is what we will get 10x with free college, and the guaranteed loans have already driven it this way a bit more)

But perhaps good colleges in the US just accept anyone that walks through the door and can pay the tuition?

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#487

Post by ElFitz »

SideQuark wrote: post #327
staunton wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is what we will get 10x with free college That seems quite different. First, lots of countries have free higher education and seem to do just fine. Second, lowering price of entry is orthogonal to lowering expected performance. Your argument does not apply.

Every free college country sends less of their people through college than the US. Is that the outcome we want? Fewer educated?

> Every free college country sends less of their people through college than the US.

Really? Says who? Because the OECD certainly doesn’t seem to think there’s any significant difference.

https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/adult-education-level.htm

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#488

Post by staunton »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #470
staunton wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have very nuanced concepts of "good and bad", which I don't fully grasp. I was starting from a rather simpler world view. Yes, I want society to function. Societal collapse is imho extremely bad. Even regardless of collapse, I still much prefer living (and having gone to school) in a country that has schools. At no point did it seem to me what the point of school is to make people dumb. That wasn't the US…

> Access to education has brought lots of people out of poverty Sure. And if schools had anything to do with education, maybe they could do that here too. But you're also commenting in a thread where there is a link to credible (uncontested, uncontroversially attested) reports that the schools are shutting down education. Purportedly to help make everyone equal. It's arguable what the cause of this is, the reasoning…

It's not that many schools and they stopped the policy again...

To my mind, the outrage is somewhat exaggerated. You could call it "outrage fetishism about culture war issues". Also an opportunity for "smart people" to feel good about "how they managed to learn things despite having to go to school" and how much better they think they could organize the school system, or how much smarter they would have been if no schools had existed.

Yes, maybe the stated reasons for trying this reform were stupid and maybe it should have been obvious to people it wouldn't work. But, crucially, they are willing to scrap what doesn't work and try something else. That can go a very long way given some time. And yes, that leaves us with an imperfect school system. Very different from arguing against having schools at all, a position far more outrageous to my mind than any "woke nonsense" I've been subjected to so far.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#489

Post by thaumasiotes »

Dalewyn wrote: post #60
thaumasiotes wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Has any child ever gotten better at something they don't have to do? > Nope It happens all the time. You think people are born being great at Mario Kart?

Are you implying playing Mario Kart isn't a must-do for a child? I would argue that as far as they are concerned, it is: It's fun. Must-dos fall under those dictated by our surroundings (eg: life, work, etc.) and those dictated by ourselves (eg: it's fun, it's for a greater purpose, etc.). Math education falls under neither.

In your model of the world, is it possible for anyone to actually do anything that they didn't have to do?

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#490

Post by PhilipRoman »

georgeecollins wrote: post #243
testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

My kid is on this track exactly and I think it is a joke that some kids take multivariable calculus or linear algebra in high school. Enrichment and AP has become an arms race for the upper middle class to get their kids into good schools. Realistically, if you are STEM major you probably are going to have to retake these classes anyway. And if you aren't you probably won't need them. I know some kids are really exce…

I wish I had studied more math during highschool. University killed any free time I had and was so fast-paced that proofs were omitted, entire chapters skipped and I'm not even talking about building intuitive understanding of the subject.

In contrast, high school was three years of repeating the same equation solving with some calculus sprinkled on.

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