iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#21

Post by Vespasian » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

I understand your concern and share some of them.

However the solution to overreaching unaccountable private cooperations cannot be to hand all the power to another private unaccountable company.

Apple is venturing into advertising and that'll tempt them to weaken privacy protections sooner or later.

Additionally their app store rules went far beyond enforcing security and privacy. They gave themselves an advantage and removed competitors for commercial reasons.

Given that the mobile market is pretty much a duopoly in Europe there were two (political) realistic alternatives:

- Regulate tightly what apple/google are allowed to do with their stores (e.g. like a common carrier)

- force them to give customers a choice by allowing side loading.

The elected EU legislative took some points from both approaches AFTER the free market failed to implement a meaningful competition for central app stores.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#22

Post by vbezhenar » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

For many years, everyone who wanted to sideload apps on an iPhone has been able to do so. I am unsure about what makes this so exciting.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#23

Post by voisin » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #9

The big question is: will there be some kind of "program" the user and/or developer needs to get into to be able to sideload/distribute independent apps? The ideal status quo would be one where developers can make native apps, and users download and run them, without entering into a contractual relationship with Apple period . (Beyond the iOS EULA, which stands on legally shaky ground)

> The ideal status quo

I disagree. Allow side loading of apps that still meet a threshold for safety, privacy, etc (determined through a program like you refer to), but eliminate the App Store cut of sales.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#24

Post by lewisflude » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

If Apple do implement this, I hope they can ensure 3rd party apps live in a sandbox or otherwise need to be given explicit permissions. One big argument I've seen against side-loading on iOS is people like the confidence of knowing that an app has to play by iOS's rules, so if we can bring this to the world of side-loading then this could be a win-win for "both camps".

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#25

Post by PartiallyTyped » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

This has been bugging me for a few minutes, and I'd be keen on hearing thoughts from other hackers.

Given sideloading will be available, does this not create a broader attack vector that government agencies may use to access user data?

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#26

Post by nerdjon » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

I agree with you and I hate that you are being downvoted.

People love to say this is about choice for the consumer but it really is not going to be.

My fear is that the choice will be taken away from my by companies that are no longer able to engage in shady behavior on iOS. Things like trying to collect all my data, forcing me into their billing system, shady subscriptions (like how I can cancel or reminders of it being about to charge).

The Facebooks, TikTok, etc know that many of their users are addicted to their platform and it would not be a stretch for them to push users to download the app through a third party service. I could even see them going so far as to not be on the official store because they know they have the name recognition.

Facebook could even make their own store for other apps that don't want to respect my privacy.

This is a huge concern of mine that this could be a trend that starts small but overtime I no longer have the choice to avoid these alternate stores or to side load to be able to continue to get the full use out of my phone.

Choice is great, but this is giving the choice to developers not consumers.

This doesn't mean that Apple's solution is perfect, but just opening up the flood gates is not the solution either. If you really want to side load get an Android phone.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#27

Post by mft_ » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

29083011397778 wrote: post #11

> Historically, Apple execs including Tim Cook and Craig Federighi have staunchly opposed sideloading citing privacy and security reasons. Which is funny to me, because after flipping through the App Store for an email client, I found, on this heavily curated storefront, a single digit number of apps I would trust with my email credentials. Android, with it's option to "sideload" F-Droid, gives me dramatically more o…

Genuine question: what are you basing these 'trust' judgements on, especialy in the case of the Android apps? Open source, or something else?

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#28

Post by Karunamon » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #5

EU only. Not in the land of the free.

This assumes facts not in evidence. The change is being forced by EU law, but it would take more effort to geo-fence it than to make the change globally. Not to mention the fact that it would be effort in the direction of a PR loss.

No, the more Apple way to spin this is as a positive for everyone. As if they had the idea the entire time and just now figured out how to make it work.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#29

Post by smoldesu » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

nerdjon wrote: post #26

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

I agree with you and I hate that you are being downvoted. People love to say this is about choice for the consumer but it really is not going to be. My fear is that the choice will be taken away from my by companies that are no longer able to engage in shady behavior on iOS. Things like trying to collect all my data, forcing me into their billing system, shady subscriptions (like how I can cancel or reminders of it b…

> but overtime I no longer have the choice to avoid these alternate stores or to side load

Maybe Apple should update the terms of the App Store to be more competitive/attractive then.

Re: iOS 17 will reportedly set the stage for sideloading apps on iPhone

#30

Post by bena » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:14 PM UTC

overthrow wrote: post #17

TexanFeller wrote: post #10

I'm dreading this. I want privacy hostile companies like Facebook to have to comply with the app store rules and respect system settings relating to privacy. As a user, I'm thrilled when Apple wields its big stick to stop big tech companies from overreaching. Before there was a bit of a compromise, I could use evil apps with some peace of mind that they wouldn't do something egregious. Now I suspect evil apps just wo…

You're dreading giving other people the freedom to make one choice, and yourself the freedom to make a different choice (yours being the default option from the factory btw), and everyone gets the privacy/control tradeoff they want?

I think you're missing something.

Meta makes the Facebook app. Currently, the only way to get the Facebook app on iOS is through Apple's App Store. Which means Meta has to follow all of Apple's guidelines.

Once sideloading is allowed, Meta can make a version of their app that does not follow Apple's guidelines.

Now, they can maintain two apps, but last time I checked, the cost of maintaining one app was lower than the cost of maintaining two.

Eventually, the App Store version will no longer work with Facebook's API. Or the iOS version, or a third thing. There will only be the sideloaded option.

I don't have the freedom to choose the version of the app I want. And now I can't actually trust any of the apps out there because none of them are required to follow any of Apple's guidelines.