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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

joannejacobs.com

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#351

Post by LeanderK »

georgeecollins wrote: post #243
testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

My kid is on this track exactly and I think it is a joke that some kids take multivariable calculus or linear algebra in high school. Enrichment and AP has become an arms race for the upper middle class to get their kids into good schools. Realistically, if you are STEM major you probably are going to have to retake these classes anyway. And if you aren't you probably won't need them. I know some kids are really exce…

I wholeheartedly agree. Exceptions to the rule always exist and I don't want it to be impossible, but they should be entirely optional and non-standard. You are going to re-learn it anyway (and learn it better, from first principles instead of patched together).

It's also an arms race that's misplaced. STEM majors are learning math anyway, there really are diminishing returns in cramming more of it into your school curriculum. A lot of different subjects are way more useful, ideally some that do exactly not prepare yourself for a major of your choice, otherwise you end up with over-optimised education. You need some social studies and discuss current topics moving america and the world. You need to write essays about these difficult topics. You need a little bit of science and a little bit of history. And a foreign language. It's about the abstract ideals of education, afterwards you can choose the major you want.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#352

Post by pigsty »

staunton wrote: post #285
pigsty wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid is the one in class choosing not to read. Parents can be destructive influences on kids, but kids also do have free will and destructive influences amongst their peers who they choose to associate with. It’s a compounding problem and each time we assign blame to one (1) thing, we’re leaving other causes untreated and not making the problem better at all.

Would you say that "if a child doesn't want to learn how to read, that's fine, their choice"?

I’d say ask find out why they’re saying they don’t want to read and address all those causes.

There are plenty of kids with great parents who are surrounded by awful peers at school and media that glorifies being uneducated. Then you leave 2 bad kids in a class of good kids, and you’ll get endless distractions that cause the others to give up and resent school. You address just one cause and you have countless others. You need to go after a load of issues and it’s honestly more complicated than we want to admit.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#353

Post by redeeman »

Erwin wrote: post #311
diordiderot wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rich will always have those outlets The Nordic countries have the best schools in the world. Private schools are banned. Well except for Sweden. They introduced vouchers in the 90s and as soon as they did, their rankings started rolling like dung down a hill.

Denmark has had a private school system for decades, and 15% of students go into the private schools (as a parent you pay a portion of the costs so it is not necessarily extremely expensive). "Private" mostly means that you still have to teach specific basics, but you can do it in your way like Montessori. One advantage of the private schools is they can kick out students they cannot manage easily, while the public s…

> Some recent strutural changes in the public shools are said to have declined their quality, enough so that many government ministers, even of the left wing, are sending their children to the private schools.

they did that before too :) couldnt possibly expect the politicians to send their kids to the same filthy schools as the plebs now could we? :)

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#354

Post by mlrtime »

Cymrukicks wrote: post #350
ALittleLight wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, equality of opportunity is cruel and counter productive for exactly the reasons you mention. You cannot realistically achieve equality by elevating everyone, which means you need to focus on taking away from people. The moral and practical thing to do would be focusing on improving objective outcomes. Focusing on equality degrades objective outcomes in favor of moral perversion - taking away from some to make oth…

To answer your question first you make sure that child has the same education resources available that the professors child does throughout all aspects of their life. You also make the professors available to children from those inner city areas widening the networking effects that the children of the professor gets. they won't be as good but you open them up. Improving objective outcomes is some Krypton level shit,…

"throughout all aspects of their life".

You meant at t0, the movement the baby is born to a parent optimizes education vs a baby that is born to a parent that cares much less. Impossible for government to "make sure" this happens.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#355

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

euroderf wrote: post #337
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #293

What's the problem? I remember at the beginning of each school year they gave us math textbooks for the year. I took me a week to read it all and do all the exercises. Today there is internet, Wikipedia, youtube, everything is so much easier.

The problem is, you're bored the rest of the year and become disruptive in class. Been there, done that.

Just admit that school's main function is free day care. Provide rooms for playing and quiet rooms for those who want to study.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#356

Post by mlrtime »

georgeecollins wrote: post #243
testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

My kid is on this track exactly and I think it is a joke that some kids take multivariable calculus or linear algebra in high school. Enrichment and AP has become an arms race for the upper middle class to get their kids into good schools. Realistically, if you are STEM major you probably are going to have to retake these classes anyway. And if you aren't you probably won't need them. I know some kids are really exce…

I'll cancel your anecdote with mine.

I didn't take any advance math in HS and actually did quite average. By some miracle I was admitted a very good Electrical Engineering program. However they made me take these advance math classes before university to prove that I could handle the task.

Removing these options from HS just lowers the bar for everyone.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#357

Post by Dalewyn »

thethirdone wrote: post #47
Dalewyn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic e…

> As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? It seems like a strange thing to hate except for trauma from school. Are you referring to K-12 level math only? Math at the college level is very useful. Most of the math I was taught in K…

>Would you mind explaining why you still hate math?

I apologize if I didn't make myself clear: I hate academical math. I love math, especially once I realized how truly relevant it is to quite literally everything around me.

It was computer programming, long after and outside my academical times, that taught me what math really was about. Suddenly, all those numbers and letters had actual meanings and values to them, I learned I could manipulate them to store and mean literally anything. It was a mindblowing paradigm shift in my way of understanding and thinking everything.

All the teachers and textbooks in the world failed to teach me the true value and purpose of math, and I loathe them for wasting my time with their absolute failure.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#358

Post by Dalewyn »

hardware2win wrote: post #349
Dalewyn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic e…

Practicing Math means practicing logic This is the most powerful tool for making your life easier

I was only ever taught to rote memorize equations and ways to manipulate numbers, I was never taught the hows and whys.

Therefore, there was nothing logical about academical math and it didn't help me think logically about anything.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#359

Post by Dalewyn »

chii wrote: post #173
Dalewyn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying playing Mario Kart isn't a must-do for a child? I would argue that as far as they are concerned, it is: It's fun. Must-dos fall under those dictated by our surroundings (eg: life, work, etc.) and those dictated by ourselves (eg: it's fun, it's for a greater purpose, etc.). Math education falls under neither.

> I would argue that as far as they are concerned, it is: It's fun. and it's fun _because_ it's evolutionarily important to learn new things, and thus natural selection for humans have made learning (and mastery) "fun". Mastering mario cart takes lots of learning. Maths isn't fun only because the kids aren't learning in class, and isn't gaining mastery. It's taught poorly - maths can certainly be fun.

I wouldn't argue Mario Kart or games in general are "evolutionarily important", but we both agree it's fun.

>It's taught poorly - maths can certainly be fun.

My point exactly. Math is fun and valuable, but academical math is terrible; it teaches nothing of importance and most people end up hating math because of how irrelevant and worthless the way it is taught is.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#360

Post by LeanderK »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #89
g9yuayon wrote: post #24

> "Families with resources turn to fee-required online algebra 1 courses in eighth grade, outside the public school system, or enroll their kids in private schools," Isn't this obvious result? The Russian School of Mathematics could manage to teach 10-year old kids basic algebra. And there's AOPS, there's Think Academy, and slew of local tutoring schools who can teach kids relatively advanced maths. Let alone many pr…

What else could possible result? There are people who don't understand sociology and are only vaguely aware of pathological cultural factors (or possibly, though they are aware of them, wish to deny their existence) and demand that these problems be solved with bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is only able to crudely affect these, and only in the most totalitarian of regimes. Mao or Stalin might have been able to rid their c…

nearly every other developed country managed to fund their schools system adequately, to provide a uniform system of education without heavy reliance on private schools. While you can't really guarantee equal opportunities for every kid due extracurricular support, at least the possible schools and classes are open to everyone independent of income.

So one should strive to eliminate private schools as much as possible. I entrenches inequality.

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