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Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

economist.com

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#311

Post by ETH_start »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #294
ETH_start wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economists have studied this extensively. Less substantial government social safety nets lead to higher personal savings rates. Personal savings rates reach as high as 40% in countries without social democracy. This capital is managed by the individuals who will derive the entire benefit from it, so they are incentivized to manage it effectively, and not hand it over to inefficient union-run bureaucracies, which give…

In aggregate, I'm sure that's true, but there are all sorts in society, including people who have little capacity to earn money in the first place, let alone save it. That includes, for example, orphans, people with severe physical or mental disabilities, drug addicts, elderly people who lose their savings to fraud, and so on. Taking care of these people does create an economic burden on society that might come at th…

Sure, but that's not the primary reason it's better for economic growth. A far larger proportion of social program beneficiaries would survive in an alternate timeline where these programs never existed. As for charity cases, there are vast private social support networks that emerge in a society with lower taxes and less government-funded social safety nets.

It's not a perfect system with no one falling through the cracks, but it is a system more resilient to systemic collapse as seen in the USSR when it went bankrupt, and one that produces greater economic/social development overall.

The zero-risk bias means people prefer to bring one type of risk to zero, even if it means increasing overall risk. I believe that is what's at work with government-provisioned social safety nets. Economic growth reduces a host of risks. But a social safety brings one type of risk - that is actually quite insignificant relative to the rest - to zero. So people are willing to trade economic growth for unconditional social safety nets.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#312

Post by aksss »

BenFranklin100 wrote: post #100
aksss wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s make sure we’re distinguishing between immigration of high skilled labor vs sending high skill jobs overseas or hiring high skill workers on low-wage worker visas. I don’t know a single worker in tech that’s hostile to immigration of high skilled labor, nor afraid of said immigrant stealing their job. Most people I know would be grateful for some help. I know plenty of people critical of work visa programs (inc…

For one claiming not wanting to blur a topic, bringing up offshoring jobs — essentially the opposite of immigration — is a rather odd response.

Things tech workers associate with “job stealing” (exploitive temporary visa programs and offshoring) should not be characterized as an animus towards immigration. They are different, and that’s the point, right? Nobody in tech I’ve ever met is worried about a high skilled immigrant stealing a tech job.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#313

Post by pcrh »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #300
pcrh wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's intriguing. GDP per capita comparisons between the US and Europe would suggest that almost all of Europe should have a lower standard of living than the US. However, this is not the experience of people who have lived in both places, principally because one needs a greater income in the US for the same standard of living compared to most of Europe. Perhaps this reflects over-valuation of the US dollar? As to the…

I think you may be conflating “standard of living” with “quality of life”, they are not the same thing. While I think quality of life is typically better in Europe by many metrics, there is no doubt that the standard of living in the US is commonly higher. They are not as tightly correlated as I think people assume. EDIT: As an example, I split my time between Seattle and London. Cost of living is quite similar, but…

"Standard of living" would include access to education, healthcare, work-life balance, the public environment (e.g. within cities), vacation, parental leave, etc, not just material goods.

While access to material goods and size of housing is normally certainly higher in the US, education and healthcare are notably more expensive for the same quality in the US compared to North and West Europe, and the public environment of most American cities is abysmal.

edit: my personal experience is in the SF Bay Area, London & SE England, and BeNeLux.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#314

Post by anon291 »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #183

It's true the US knows how to succeed. The top x% is doing really well. The mid is doing well in terms of being able to acquire everything they need to live at a reasonable level. The big question is how do we get the bottom percentage to have a life where they don't have to struggle to find a place to live and making sure they never go hungry? Success can never be success if we have homeless encampments in our citie…

> The big question is how do we get the bottom percentage to have a life where they don't have to struggle to find a place to live and making sure they never go hungry?

I'm sorry this sort of thing is ridiculous. Are you European? The vast majority of American cities have multiple organizations attempting to give away food and unable to find takers. Our own church throws away so many pounds of food that we receive from donations. We are in a west coast city with a large homeless problem. None of them are starving. None want food. Literally we advertise and spend endless hours attempting to give away food. We had the same 'issue' at our former church in San Francisco and my aunt is a volunteer at a food pantry in southern California. Same problem.. too much food.

The United States has a lot of problems but a lot of the problems are not caused by lack of money or goods or food. If anything, the problems are caused by too much money.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#315

Post by throwaway675309 »

PostOnce wrote: post #166

My 2 cents, some of the reasons America succeeds: (fact) America is a single market with a single language with basically a single set of regulations. Expansion is cheap in America. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to expand to another US city than it does to expand to Norway or New Zealand; but for a company in those countries, expansion is very expensive, expanding requires new laws, regulations, business entiti…

As a fellow American, I can't really identify with some of these points. You seem weirdly almost perversely proud of the idea of overworking oneself, towards what end, economical? I mean it's not as if there is any intrinsic purpose to life anyway, but this one feels rooted in some long-lost rags to riches Horacio Alger Gilded Age.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#316

Post by tdehnel »

_heimdall wrote: post #303
PostOnce wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me answer you honestly and in depth: Why? Why not? If I am alive, I may as well make an effort, since I have a finite time to do so. It's fun. It's a challenge. I know a couple of men in their 50s, one is relatively wealthy (some tens of millions of dollars), and I have often seen him on top of a machine with a wrench in his hand at 6am. Sometimes it's 3am. He starts a new company every year or two and adds it to…

You're describing so many things wrong with humans as a species, or at least modern humans. We shouldn't change things just because we can. We shouldn't assume that if we're able to extract natural resources its also our right to use them without question until they're completely depleted. Why should we assume that every invention, every technology, everything we call "progress" is actually advancing in a good direct…

This is a bad theory because it could apply to literally any time in the past or in the future. It’s infinitely variable and not falsifiable thus unscientific.

Meanwhile, progress (aka people trying to make the world better) will continue whether you like it or not, bringing benefits to practically everyone forever. Pessimists may temporarily stifle progress, but the genie has been out of the bottle for the last 400 years or so. Good luck trying to stop people from wanting better for themselves aka solving problems.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#317

Post by swexbe »

kevinskii wrote: post #264
dopidopHN wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to give you additional data point with cell phone prices. I’m French but I’m living in the Us since a decade or so. Cell phone prices are considerably cheaper in France ( €30 gets you unlimited everything on mobile and €80 is a combo for fiber + mobile plan ) But yet, that a heavily regulated market. If I’m correct there is 5 licences. All other companies have to buy and resell bandwidth thought those 5 licence.…

Excellent points, but perhaps part of the reason for the price difference is because the US population is much more geographically dispersed, so the infrastructure costs are much higher.

Most people live in metro areas.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#318

Post by pb7 »

fullsend wrote: post #293
PostOnce wrote: post #166

My 2 cents, some of the reasons America succeeds: (fact) America is a single market with a single language with basically a single set of regulations. Expansion is cheap in America. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to expand to another US city than it does to expand to Norway or New Zealand; but for a company in those countries, expansion is very expensive, expanding requires new laws, regulations, business entiti…

The consequences of failure in America are higher, that’s why we work so hard. You are a millionaire, or you are homeless. The in between is a hard and continuous struggle to get to the former and avoid becoming the latter.

So which one are you, millionaire or homeless?

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#319

Post by PostOnce »

_heimdall wrote: post #303
PostOnce wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me answer you honestly and in depth: Why? Why not? If I am alive, I may as well make an effort, since I have a finite time to do so. It's fun. It's a challenge. I know a couple of men in their 50s, one is relatively wealthy (some tens of millions of dollars), and I have often seen him on top of a machine with a wrench in his hand at 6am. Sometimes it's 3am. He starts a new company every year or two and adds it to…

You're describing so many things wrong with humans as a species, or at least modern humans. We shouldn't change things just because we can. We shouldn't assume that if we're able to extract natural resources its also our right to use them without question until they're completely depleted. Why should we assume that every invention, every technology, everything we call "progress" is actually advancing in a good direct…

I disagree to some extent that we should not change things just because we can: we grow beautiful ornamental gardens and weave silk and make cheese because these things please us and not necessarily because we need them; nature would never produce such order. We are the masters of our world. Nature, too, has merit, but nature makes flood and famine and disease -- we can engineer against those things.

Money is an instrument of labor also; it's possible to be rich, carbon negative, and without using up any depletable resources.

In fact, more efficiency (less resources used to produce a good) means more profit, doesn't it?

Money is the only reason a lot of endangered species are still alive. Here, rats eat ground-nesting bird eggs. Only money to build fences and island sanctuaries and establish breeding programs saved them.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#320

Post by JohnBooty »

bugglebeetle wrote: post #275
boc wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say “significant portions of the population” and then reference a segment of society that could collectively all fit inside one college football stadium, it feels like hyperbole. Despite what you read online, the amount of Americans who see unsheltered homeless on a daily basis is very low.

What’s your source for this claim? Something like 80% of Americans live in an urban setting. In no large city that I’ve ever been in can you go a day without seeing homeless people, unless you work from home and order all your food from an app.

Forgive the nitpick, but absolutely nowhere near 80% of Americans are encountering homeless on a regular basis. Homelessness in particular and inequality in general are major problems! I don't mean to sweep that under the rug! However, I don't think it's true that anywhere near a majority of Americans encounter homeless people on a daily basis.

    Something like 80% of Americans live in an urban setting
Yes, for the Census Bureau's particular and extremely loose definition of "urban" which includes what anybody in America would call "suburbs" and even a lot of places people would call "rural": https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

The key TL;DR determination factor (there are others, read for yourself) is this:

    In order for a block to qualify as urban, it must have a den-
    sity of 1,000 people per square mile (ppsm).
That is not a lot. I live in a very stereotypical suburb (everybody has a driveway, and a small yard) and population density here is like 8,000 people per square mile... nobody would call this place urban besides the Census Bureau. (For reference, NYC's population density is 26,403 per square mile)

I don't think I've ever seen a homeless person outside a major city... you just don't see it in suburbs or rural areas.

Again, major problem, it's just that most Americans don't see it on a regular basis... which perhaps is part of the root of the problem. Makes it easy to ignore.

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