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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

joannejacobs.com

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#211

Post by testfoobar »

amluto wrote: post #123

The district’s curriculum is partially available to the public: https://www.sfusd.edu/departments/mathematics-department-pag... https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd-math-core-course-sequence-... And the district position statement: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uije_05H3BtVyp55oQZ7NCa2k58... It has a “guiding principle”: > Students’ academic success in mathematics must not be predictable on the basis of race, ethnici…

Its like people are willfully ignoring the obvious: Black and Hispanic kids do the worst in math. Understanding why and correcting for the problems is a complex task. Making big proclamations about equity isn't going to do it.

Family life matters to the growth and development of children. 64% of Black children live in single parent homes vs. 16% of Asian kids. How does this effect math results? Black children are more likely to live near highways with higher rates of air pollution and asthma. Do Black children sleep poorly and have poorer memory formation?

Black and hispanic children who are more like to be poor may have chronic background stress from poverty: food and shelter insecurity. They may have inadequate access to health care. They miss routine screenings for vision, hearing and dyslexia. Chronic absenteeism and tardiness abounds. Are these the problems?

Identifying and correcting the root cause of divergent math outcomes is likely to be a multi-faceted and complex endeavor involving families, finances and health. It is worth doing. Everyone deserves the best possible education outcome.

Unfortunately, with scant evidence, math educators have somehow convinced themselves the root cause of the problem is entirely the math curriculum and the equitable solution is to deprive advanced kids of opportunity. Madness.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#212

Post by keeganpoppen »

b59831 wrote: post #132
praxulus wrote: post #32

I live in Seattle, not San Francisco, but we have some similar issues with our schools. I'd really prefer to send my son to our local public schools, but if they aren't challenging him appropriately then my wife and I obviously aren't going to just give up on his education. We'll either pay for extracurricular enrichment like the person in this article, move to a wealthy suburb, or send him to a private school instea…

And the kids who's families can't afford to move/go to private school pay for the rich family's idealism.

i'm curious in what sense you mean that they "pay"... public schools could easily just offer these classes, ex idealism, but they choose not to in the name of Equity. and it's not because the rich kids go and attend private school instead-- their rich parents still pay property taxes like everyone else, so i don't really know how that flight would shift an extra burden on to the kids that don't move schools. i guess school funding is tied in some formulaic sense to the number of kids that attend that specific school? but even that roundabout justification has the causality backward: the un-offering of the course is what leads to the rich kid flight in the first place-- seems to me that the only "idealism" that is being "paid" for here is that which is being promulgated by the Church of "Equity". but it is true that the non-rich kids are the ones stuck paying for it. (but where do the kids of these high priests of Equity go to school? i have a hunch...)

and beyond that, isn't the whole point of GP's comment that the idealistic rich people are trying to / would like to leave their children in public schools? what's idealistic about sending your kids to private school instead? seems like the exact opposite to me.

so other than "pay" not making any sense, "idealism" not making sense, and randomly swapping whose (not "who's") idealism is being paid for, your reply makes perfect sense.

like, when people make comments like this, do they think that they are saying anything in particular, or is it just about the words sounding good in a certain order, like music lyrics? it's like some sort of pathos DDoS. but, hey: at least "your heart's in the right place", right?

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#213

Post by echelon »

adamredwoods wrote: post #205
praxulus wrote: post #32

I live in Seattle, not San Francisco, but we have some similar issues with our schools. I'd really prefer to send my son to our local public schools, but if they aren't challenging him appropriately then my wife and I obviously aren't going to just give up on his education. We'll either pay for extracurricular enrichment like the person in this article, move to a wealthy suburb, or send him to a private school instea…

We have two friends whose kids are in two different Seattle middle schools, and the anecdotes we hear are not going well. One middle school was considering getting rid of advanced courses entirely. We're in East Renton, which usually follows Seattle, but they have kept honor courses. In fact, honor courses are encouraged to take, open to everyone, and from what I understand, no one is rejected (possibly only for the…

You're not going to improve the lives of impoverished children by lowering the bar. It's absurd.

The best solution I can think of is to pay children to succeed in academics or extracurriculars (STEM, clubs, sports, arts, etc.) A student wouldn't have to be gifted in math, just apply themselves to some interest that drives them.

Give them a score-based percentage of $200/mo for hitting certain criteria each month. Playing for the school sports team, being in the band, getting involved in photography. Something positive in academics, arts, leadership, cooperation.

Paying kids would teach valuable lessons about finance and build up a reward system that would serve them later in life as they begin to associate action and achievement with positive outcomes. It should still work even if they don't have a suitable environment at home to discover this on their own.

Right now school is basically daycare. It can teach those that are properly prepared at home to pay attention, but it fails so many others.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#214

Post by KingMachiavelli »

I think these one size fits all policies almost never work as I think many here will agree.

But I also think the public school system has many one size fits all policies that no one questions.

Many people advocate for smaller class sizes so teachers can spend more time with each student, but this is very expensive so if tends to come with compromises.

I did very well in HS including advanced math but class size had nothing to do with it. I did well because I ignored the instructor and just did homework and studied in every class; often to the annoyance of the instructor.

In college this effect was even worse since class size is a key metric for US News college rankings work. Small class sizes mean college costs more. If college costs even $10 more per class-hour then you loose about an hour of time to study (per hour of class/instruction!) if you're working to afford college.

But weed-out classes are often taught via large lectures while easier electives tend to be smaller class sizes so it'd be difficult to observe this in metrics.

If you A/B tested large very small class sizes would you see an improvement? Probably, but you would never see the effects for an individual student. I keep wondering why offering different size classes isn't the solution? I think a lot of students would prefer the hands off approach of large classes while some really need smaller class sizes.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#215

Post by lokar »

prpl wrote: post #207
testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

I have a hard time believing above average students (with parents with parents without engineering/science degrees) could take linear algebra and multi variable calculus at university rigor along any other courses they are required to take. Sure, maybe at Paly and Gunn there’s enough to fill a 20 person class, but those are still pretty steep courses which require math majors and not math education majors. If the stu…

At some point the answer should be to support students just taking a class or two at a local university. This is totally reasonable.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#216

Post by yellowcake0 »

brnaftr361 wrote: post #152
zdragnar wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memorizing things like SOHCAHTOA and FOIL may not be a vital life skill for everyone, but everyone can benefit from the base logical thinking required to identify a variable, break a problem down into steps, plan and execute a solution. At a bare minimum, the basics of algebra (and to a lesser extent precalc, such as understanding limits and differentials) foster a type of abstract thinking and skills that pretty muc…

Can you define what you mean by abstract thinking skills? Everything else you've listed can be acquired as a dishwasher or a line cook. Anyways, the classes always seemed to me to tend more towards shut up and calculate than they did building a robust understanding and perhaps most important of it all: a mathematical intuition. I always found it profoundly stupid that there were never any essay questions in math, I e…

During graduate school I interacted with academics working in math education who felt similarly, that math should be taught through essay questions, e.g. "explain the concept of a limit", and the like. I've always felt it was a deeply misguided pedagogy and I hope it does not become popular. Solving well crafted exercises requires a deep understanding of the material, it's unnecessary to check understanding in some other way.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#217

Post by gnicholas »

edmundsauto wrote: post #49
foolfoolz wrote: post #14

math is just the beginning of these backwards policies. public schools in california have been removing advanced classes in the name of “equity” for years. the racial enrollment in those classes did not reflect the racial enrollment of the school. the result? parents moving kids to private school. at the school nearest me they kindergarten enrollment is dropping. they are likely going to only have a a single class in…

How would you recommend a soon-to-be-parent keep track of what's actually being taught in schools, before their kid is in a given year? I see a lot of headlines but have no idea how this is different or if I should be concerned.

Make friends with parents of kids who are a couple years older. We've gotten the runaround from the school and district. They are familiar with stalling tactics and they know how to deploy them effectively. They start out saying things that sound promising, then string you along for a year or two, blaming special circumstances. By the time you realize it was all a game, your kid is about to graduate from that school. If you had talked with other parents, you would know their playbook and how to politely but effectively push back.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#218

Post by neuronexmachina »

hedora wrote: post #112
jeffbee wrote: post #36

It's interesting how path-dependency makes these things seem like controversial reforms, while nearby districts have always done it this way. In Berkeley, for example, there isn't any course called "Algebra I" or II. Through 8th grade there is just math, with no differentiation. Then for 9th grade you can test into an advanced track, and people take either Math 1/2/3 or Advanced Math 1/2/3. In senior year any of thes…

Berkeley public schools have a terrible reputation: https://www.greatschools.org/california/berkeley/25-Berkeley... Slightly above average in California is a failing grade by US standards. (California schools are 43rd in the nation.)

Berkeley's scores from you link:

* College Readiness, 8/10: This school is above the state average in key measures of college and career readiness.

* Test Scores, 9/10: Test scores at this school are far above the state average, suggesting that most students at this school are performing at or above grade level.

* Equity, 4/10: Underserved students at this school may be falling behind other students in the state, and this school may have significant achievement gaps.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#220

Post by jkingsbery »

ChancyChance wrote: post #99

Kids take algebra in 8th grade? When the heck did this start? I didn't take it until first year highschool (using US terms).

In the public school I went to up through 7th grade (in the late 90s), the top 10% to 20% took algebra in 8th grade. In the private high school I went to, most of the 9th grade class had algebra the previous year (whether they went to public school or private for middle school). While by no means universal, it's been pretty common for a while.
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