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Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

economist.com

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#221

Post by ETH_start »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #211
ETH_start wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has, along with Canada and Europe, rapidly moved toward social democracy: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long... All of the empirical evidences indicates this slows economic development. Individuals being responsible for their own safety nets is more efficient, and creates better incentives, than large government bureaucracies socializing the cost of safety nets.

Is that because those who aren't capable of taking care of themselves just... die?

Economists have studied this extensively. Less substantial government social safety nets lead to higher personal savings rates. Personal savings rates reach as high as 40% in countries without social democracy.

This capital is managed by the individuals who will derive the entire benefit from it, so they are incentivized to manage it effectively, and not hand it over to inefficient union-run bureaucracies, which give their employees early retirement at 55 with massive pensions:

https://www.hoover.org/research/california-state-government-...

They are also incentivized not to be lazy and draw upon it, as doing so hurts their own interests, by depleting their own savings.

When people pay for their own expenses, their incentives are aligned with the goal of national economic efficiency.

Government, meanwhile, ultimately becomes a rent extraction mechanism, no matter what its ostensible purpose is:

https://twitter.com/SpencerKSchiff/status/125276128577685913...

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#222

Post by adriand »

CountSessine wrote: post #194
Tiktaalik wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your point about USA benefiting from a single big market is a strong one. Consider for contrast Canada, also a single language market, also geographically isolated, and sharing many of the inherent benefits of NA that America has. Canada though, not often considered a real economic dynamo in the same way as the USA. Well one big difference is that Canada is a relatively small population spread thin over an en…

It's even worse than that because we didn't have a commerce-clause the way you do. Canada actually has trade tariffs between it's own provinces. It was only in 2017 that the provinces signed a free trade agreement with each other, and even then it was a very limited agreement with enforcement issues.

I’m Canadian and I think this is insane. Free trade between the provinces seems like a no-brainer. I also think we should be taking a harder look at our protectionism against American companies. I understand the value of having healthy domestic industries but the prices of cellphone plans here, for example, are nothing short of outrageous. We already pay so much more than Americans in taxes, must the services we buy from private companies also be so much more expensive than stateside?

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#223

Post by WalterBright »

awesome_dude wrote: post #213
WalterBright wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba's economy is closed to outsiders. Didn't make them prosperous. They have a state run bank, too. Didn't make them prosperous.

Whilst your comparison is problematic on the grounds that Cuba suffered from decades of economic sanctions, it still manages to do better than similar nearby economies, Haiti, Jamaica, etc. The point I was making was that the person I was replying to was claiming that Japan's economic prosperity was due to it have a "free market" which it does not (unless you count socialism for the companies as "freedom").

> suffered from decades of economic sanctions

Protecting an economy is the same thing as economic sanctions. You can't claim that one results in prosperity while the other explains economic malaise.

> which it does not

It certainly does. It wasn't a perfect free market, though, as nothing human is perfect. But it was close enough to do the job.

BTW, I wrote that it was a free market.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#224

Post by fnordpiglet »

woobar wrote: post #216
tambourine_man wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will export millions of dollars in products that I produced here, or I will die trying Why? Really. Maybe I’m in a midlife crises but I care about money less and less. I used to get a a lot of satisfaction from the simple fact of seeing the number on my bank account increase. Not so much in the past decade. My computer, phone, speaker, camera and other tech toys are amazing and not that expensive. Great food and…

> what does one need that requires “millions of dollars” Stop working?

Not dying when you no longer have health insurance

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#225

Post by tambourine_man »

woobar wrote: post #216
tambourine_man wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will export millions of dollars in products that I produced here, or I will die trying Why? Really. Maybe I’m in a midlife crises but I care about money less and less. I used to get a a lot of satisfaction from the simple fact of seeing the number on my bank account increase. Not so much in the past decade. My computer, phone, speaker, camera and other tech toys are amazing and not that expensive. Great food and…

> what does one need that requires “millions of dollars” Stop working?

You can with a lot less.

But the problem is, after a while, you get addicted to working. Some kind of Stockholm syndrome in the wheels of capitalism.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#226

Post by tambourine_man »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #224
woobar wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what does one need that requires “millions of dollars” Stop working?

Not dying when you no longer have health insurance

Most countries are not like the US with its crazy health system.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#227

Post by klipt »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #214
tambourine_man wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will export millions of dollars in products that I produced here, or I will die trying Why? Really. Maybe I’m in a midlife crises but I care about money less and less. I used to get a a lot of satisfaction from the simple fact of seeing the number on my bank account increase. Not so much in the past decade. My computer, phone, speaker, camera and other tech toys are amazing and not that expensive. Great food and…

Build a school for those left behind.

If you want to build schools, why not get a job at the department of education?

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#228

Post by WalterBright »

awesome_dude wrote: post #219
awesome_dude wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst your comparison is problematic on the grounds that Cuba suffered from decades of economic sanctions, it still manages to do better than similar nearby economies, Haiti, Jamaica, etc. The point I was making was that the person I was replying to was claiming that Japan's economic prosperity was due to it have a "free market" which it does not (unless you count socialism for the companies as "freedom").

One other thing that should be noted about the Japanese "miracle" is the fact that, at a crucial point in time, their manufacturing got a huge cash shot from the USA, due to a need for vehicles for the Korean War.

The USA has given huge cash shots to many countries, and no miracle resulted. Afghanistan, for a recent example. All that foreign aid money, which does not produce any visible results.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#229

Post by awesome_dude »

WalterBright wrote: post #223
awesome_dude wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst your comparison is problematic on the grounds that Cuba suffered from decades of economic sanctions, it still manages to do better than similar nearby economies, Haiti, Jamaica, etc. The point I was making was that the person I was replying to was claiming that Japan's economic prosperity was due to it have a "free market" which it does not (unless you count socialism for the companies as "freedom").

> suffered from decades of economic sanctions Protecting an economy is the same thing as economic sanctions. You can't claim that one results in prosperity while the other explains economic malaise. > which it does not It certainly does. It wasn't a perfect free market, though, as nothing human is perfect. But it was close enough to do the job. BTW, I wrote that it was a free market.

>> suffered from decades of economic sanctions > Protecting an economy is the same thing as economic sanctions. You can't claim that one results in prosperity while the other explains economic malaise.

Uh, no.

Hard no.

> BTW, I wrote that it was a free market.

Yes, I realised it after I posted, but did not care to update what other people can see for themselves.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#230

Post by WalterBright »

zzzzzzzza wrote: post #172
WalterBright wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider Japan: (fact) a single market with a single language (fact) geographically isolated (fact) not much space (fact) burned to the ground in WW2 and yet for a while it was an economic powerhouse on the world stage. Taiwan, Hong Kong and S Korea, similar stories. So what is the common thread? Free markets.

mortgage slavery is the common thread for some reason this motivates people. primordial need for land ownership. the call of the feudalism. engine runs out of steam once the growing cabal of landlords eat the last marginal production in excess of rate of interest america has more land relative to its population so takes longer to nimbify it all

> more land

So does S. America, which has never been prosperous.

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