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Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

economist.com

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#151

Post by RestlessMind »

swalling wrote: post #95
jhbadger wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life expectancy figures are misleading though. Many people take it to mean "this is how long an average elderly person is likely to live" but is an average of all ages at death meaning more young people dying brings down the number. As the article mentions, the primary cause for lower American life expectancy isn't that its old people are dying younger but rather the violence and drug epidemics causing more young peo…

Either way the point that America is very rich but we do a comparatively terrible job of ensuring our people have long, happy lives is still true. You can pretty much apply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_... to any phenomenon that kills lots of Americans, except cancer and Alzheimer's. If we are so rich, why can't we provide for the kind of programs that would deal with so many early deat…

I think America is very rich because it incentivizes people to work their asses off all the time. Or in euphemistic corporate jargon, American society optimizes the heck out of everything to appease Wall St every quarter. If they were to focus on long, happy lives, they would not be as rich in the first place.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#152

Post by nemo44x »

Gareth321 wrote: post #96
mikepurvis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “winning” really depends on your criteria for success. Maybe it’s winning on overall metrics like GDP, but on an individual level, the story is far less clear. Like, is it winning to have the option of starting a company that produces generational wealth for yourself, while living in a city unable to solve its homelessness problem? Is it winning to be a 1%-er but have no safety net so that you're always preca…

> I think “winning” really depends on your criteria for success. Maybe it’s winning on overall metrics like GDP, but on an individual level, the story is far less clear. This is an excellent point. America does an exceptional job of making rich people richer, but it also ranks poorly in many quality of life metrics. It is now #25 on the social progress index ( https://www.socialprogress.org/ ). If people are richer b…

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#153

Post by Jcowell »

RestlessMind wrote: post #151
swalling wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way the point that America is very rich but we do a comparatively terrible job of ensuring our people have long, happy lives is still true. You can pretty much apply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_... to any phenomenon that kills lots of Americans, except cancer and Alzheimer's. If we are so rich, why can't we provide for the kind of programs that would deal with so many early deat…

I think America is very rich because it incentivizes people to work their asses off all the time. Or in euphemistic corporate jargon, American society optimizes the heck out of everything to appease Wall St every quarter. If they were to focus on long, happy lives, they would not be as rich in the first place.

> incentivizes

Incentivize is such an interesting word in these conversations. This word has two sides. One side is the word you would use usually with children. You want to “incentivize” them to do their homework? Add a reward. In this case the incentive isn’t that you’re rewarded for hard work. It’s that if you fuck up, and Fuck yo real bad, you can end up homeless, in debt and Ina poverty hole so deep you might never climb out of.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#154

Post by rqtwteye »

ttul wrote: post #34
non- wrote: post #6

> The flexibility of the labour market helps employment adapt to shifting patterns of demand. Already many of the workers in America who were laid off from Alphabet and other tech firms at the start of the year are applying their sought-after skills elsewhere, or setting up their own businesses. In continental Europe, by contrast, tech firms are still negotiating lay-offs, and may think twice about hiring there in fu…

America operates on the principal that it is better to fail quickly and rebuild than it is to defend what’s not working to preserve the status quo for as long as possible. In a century marked by rapid technological change, it is probably better to hybridize the American and European approaches, allowing faster bankruptcies and more flexible job termination in Europe while also providing a more generous safety net in…

" America operates on the principal that it is better to fail quickly and rebuild than it is to defend what’s not working to preserve the status quo for as long as possible."

The US is also willing to neglect and disenfranchise significant portions of the population and let them live in poverty, homelessness and ghettos. When you walk around SF, LA or New York it's astounding that you have super rich people live next to destitute people but the rich are perfectly fine with this as long as they can have their nice houses and neighborhoods. Or that there are significant part of the population who can't get meaningful healthcare.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#155

Post by Paul-Craft »

pxue wrote: post #127
ttul wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America operates on the principal that it is better to fail quickly and rebuild than it is to defend what’s not working to preserve the status quo for as long as possible. In a century marked by rapid technological change, it is probably better to hybridize the American and European approaches, allowing faster bankruptcies and more flexible job termination in Europe while also providing a more generous safety net in…

Canada is an oligarchy and retirement home for the unproductive. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but this is my conclusion after spending 25 years growing up, living, working and building startups here.

You haven't done any convincing yourself. I'd like to see what your reasoning is before I even think about attempting to convince you.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#156

Post by Paul-Craft »

RestlessMind wrote: post #151
swalling wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way the point that America is very rich but we do a comparatively terrible job of ensuring our people have long, happy lives is still true. You can pretty much apply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_... to any phenomenon that kills lots of Americans, except cancer and Alzheimer's. If we are so rich, why can't we provide for the kind of programs that would deal with so many early deat…

I think America is very rich because it incentivizes people to work their asses off all the time. Or in euphemistic corporate jargon, American society optimizes the heck out of everything to appease Wall St every quarter. If they were to focus on long, happy lives, they would not be as rich in the first place.

Many people would take "having a long, happy life" as the definition of being rich.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#157

Post by lmz »

DaedPsyker wrote: post #86
DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check your perspective. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea all industrialized faster and have a higher standard of living than China. All did it in the 1980s - 40 years ago. All did it without oppressive communism.

While it might not have been communist, Korea certainly was oppressive when it built the chaebols which did involve a fair bit of government management.

Also re: Taiwan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#158

Post by Teever »

roncesvalles wrote: post #149
Teever wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew I shouldn't have included the line "often those people move back in retirement for the healthcare" in my comment because it would derail any conversation about the point I was trying to make. While some of the issues that Canada faces are definitely self inflicted as you describe, the ultimate source of all of Canada's problems are that it is an American vassal state. This relationship results in Canada subsid…

I don't see how "many talented individuals make the totally rational self-interested decision to move to the United States" follows from Canada being an American vassal state. Doesn't this phenomenon apply to every country in the world? If you're born anywhere on Earth it's probably rational to want to make your way to the USA.

It's far easier for Canadians to do this due to the geographic proximity, cultural similarity, and harmonization of immigration systems.

For many Canadians visiting America is a trivial drive across the border, in fact some Canadians make this trip weekly for access to cheaper consumer goods. Hell, I just looked it up and I can get a round trip ticket to Las Vegas for $160 CAD and I'm no where near the border. Hell, I remember a boss telling me that he used to get round-trip tickets to Vegas for $60 and him and his buddies would go there on long weekends. Canadians can travel visa-free and stay in the US for 6 months.

Many younger Canadians who are interested in immigrating may already have grandparents who spend the winter in places like Arizona or Florida[0] so they can draw on the experiences and resources that their grandparents have to make the transition easier.

Additionally most Canadians are native speakers or near native speakers of English usually with accents that are identical or easily masked to blend in with Americans. Canadians who have attended post-secondary have attended institutions that are quite similar to American ones and their accreditation is easily transferable.

I'm not too sure on the specifics but I know that it's easier for Canadians with certain post-secondary education or trade tickets to get work visas in the United States under NAFTA/USMCA.

Culturally speaking the sports are very similar, there are MLB, NHL, and NBA teams in Canada, music is the same, fashion is the same, the food is the same. It's less relevant in the age of the internet but when I was growing up I could watch many local TV stations from the US and watch the nightly news in obscure places like Spokane.

All of this is due to the cultural assimilation and defacto integration of Canada into the United States.

[0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-snowbirds-u-s-winter...

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#159

Post by brewdad »

nemo44x wrote: post #152
Gareth321 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think “winning” really depends on your criteria for success. Maybe it’s winning on overall metrics like GDP, but on an individual level, the story is far less clear. This is an excellent point. America does an exceptional job of making rich people richer, but it also ranks poorly in many quality of life metrics. It is now #25 on the social progress index ( https://www.socialprogress.org/ ). If people are richer b…

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You can build an amazing life for yourself in the US and yet be one medical crisis away from ruin. I wish you well but you appear to lack empathy for those who did everything “right” but were dealt a crap hand by fate or circumstances out of their control.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#160

Post by derbOac »

seizethecheese wrote: post #25
swalling wrote: post #17

”Average incomes have grown much faster than in western Europe or Japan. Also adjusted for purchasing power, they exceed $50,000 in Mississippi, America’s poorest state—higher than in France.” The article casually dismisses the counterpoint that the US trades high income for a lower social safety net. The average French person has a life expectancy of 82. In Mississippi it’s 74.9, on par with Lithuania. Even Vietnam…

Can you propose an adjusted income metric that takes social programs into account?

Maybe something like median expected total accumulated net worth at longest known human lifespan? You'd want something that isn't distorted by income tails and reflects loss due to shortened lifespan.

It's fuzzy though and gets dystopian really quickly.

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