Having spent the last 5 years learning Korean, I've grown to find it an incredibly efficient language. 맥주 한 잔 주세요 Beer one please 화장실은 어디에요? Toilet where? 와이파이 있어요? wifi is here? You can process and even start answering someone before they've finished their sentence. By contrast in English, I'd say "Could I have another beer please?" - tell me what you need up front!
On the other hand, the question template build up can be useful when initiating contact with someone. They have the space of “Could I have…” or equivalent in other languages to get tuned in to the fact you’re asking a question. Much of speech comprehension is being able to anticipate what’s coming.
Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
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Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
All these can be said as succinctly in English though. "one beer please" is enough to place an order, and the rest is just decorative. Does Korean not have more complex / ceremonial speech patterns?
It does, many words have different age-based / status-based suffixes which adds a lot of unnecessary complexity. Numbers are also annoying as the counting numbers vs. quantity. From an information theory POV, we should really look at not just the complexity but the information density of a language. English has a lot of foolish rules, but the large vocabulary provides a much higher bandwidth than other languages. htt…
I think that it's the grammar rules that make English fairly efficient, and also effectively add to its vocabulary, because word order in English is so strong that it twists whatever word you put in a particular position into whatever part of speech it needs to be. In less order-based languages you have to learn a bunch of elaborate formulas to change the word; in English, it's basically just Subject, Verb, Object and a few mathematical rules about commas, prepositions and conjunctions to make that basic structure recursive or flowery. All of English's core vocabulary is horrifyingly irregular, and you can ignore almost all of that irregularity, prefixes and suffixes, and still make yourself pretty easily understood.
I think the massive vocabulary of English makes it less dense. We have a lot of words that mean exactly the same thing, but that we pretend mean different things. We find ourselves arguing about the innuendo around words or the "actual definitions" of words almost more than material issues, constantly invoking contradictory authorities. We're also constantly repeating ourselves and pretending like we've understood because using obscure words is a sign of intelligence, and not understanding them a sign of stupidity.
Romance languages seem to have a lot fewer words with specific meanings, and do most of their playing with grammar (making a lot of sentences into horrifying mazes.) And irt the center and north in Germanic Europe, the most interesting thing about "Uncleftish Beholding" is that to English speakers it reads like stupid cavemen talking about magic, but it's basically a unit-by-unit direct translation of how Danes, Norwegians and Swedes really talk. English speakers never use the common word for anything if they want to sound like they know what they're talking about.
an aside: I've always heard that Vietnamese is the most efficient by syllable. IIRC some paper came up with a metric where it was about 1.4x more efficient than English. There was also someone who figured out that universally, human languages expressed ideas at the same rate, but the people who spoke less efficient languages just talked faster.
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#63Is there is a general obsession in every culture with fetishizing things perceived to be foreign or inscrutable, or is it just Western culture?
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Korean has a crapload of complex speech patterns (degree of politeness - that's sheer madness) but the nice(?) thing about it is that it all comes at the end. So you can start your sentence without even deciding if it's a statement or a question. E.g., 오늘 그 식당 열어요 Today that restaurant is open. 오늘 그 식당 열어요? Is that restaurant open today? 오늘 그 식당 열 것 같아요. I guess that restaurant is open today. 오늘 그 식당 열 것 같다고 들었어요. I…
> In fact, learning English as a native Korean speaker, one of the greatest difficulty was asking questions - you can't just start your sentence and make it a question later, you have to mentally pause, construct your question in your head, and then invert the first word! It took me years. This is quite interesting to hear, but I assume you mean that you always knew if you were going ask a question before you asked i…
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#65Having spent the last 5 years learning Korean, I've grown to find it an incredibly efficient language. 맥주 한 잔 주세요 Beer one please 화장실은 어디에요? Toilet where? 와이파이 있어요? wifi is here? You can process and even start answering someone before they've finished their sentence. By contrast in English, I'd say "Could I have another beer please?" - tell me what you need up front!
I only know the script and can tell that the encoded information is a little more complex.
> You can process and even start answering someone before they've finished their sentence
That would likely break the Curry-Howard-Correspondance. So I can only concure, it is "incredible".
Good on you if you reached a point where you don't notice the difference.
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#66There might be something to this, but the way the author diagrams it all is almost incomprehensible.
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#67The Korean graphic designer Ahn Sang Soo played around with linearizing the alphabet: https://www.we-find-wildness.com/2011/05/ahn-sang-soo/img_00... What's nice is that it's immediately legible if you already know how to read, but you also realize how inherently slower it is. One of the nicest parts of Korean (and other east asian languages) is that each block is always a single syllable.
One problem is that Korean syllable structure is not as easy as one os lead to believe, from what I heard. And whether syllable is a meaningful unit is debatable.
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#68This is going to make a great r/badlinguistics post
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#69The Korean graphic designer Ahn Sang Soo played around with linearizing the alphabet: https://www.we-find-wildness.com/2011/05/ahn-sang-soo/img_00... What's nice is that it's immediately legible if you already know how to read, but you also realize how inherently slower it is. One of the nicest parts of Korean (and other east asian languages) is that each block is always a single syllable.
I'm not sure if that's inherent. One problem is that Korean syllable structure is not as easy as one os lead to believe, from what I heard. And whether syllable is a meaningful unit is debatable.
Re: Korean as a Concatenative, Stack-Oriented Language (2017)
#70Is there is a general obsession in every culture with fetishizing things perceived to be foreign or inscrutable, or is it just Western culture?