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Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

economist.com

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Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#51

Post by justinclift »

satvikpendem wrote: post #39
camillomiller wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the success of a society.

Well, the concepts of regulated free markets, free trade between nations, and generally free immigration have created the single largest increase in human living standards in history.

> single largest increase in human living standards.

That's a good point. It'd be useful if the US could raise it's game for it's citizens, and let them participate in that too. :)

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#52

Post by crop_rotation »

camillomiller wrote: post #26
crop_rotation wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European approach makes a lot of sense in other stable industries (Automobile/Steel). But in a fast moving quick changing (e.g. Tech) industries, all it does is prevent new risky companies from starting and making it harder for them to adapt. Maybe it is a good thing. But only time can tell that. So far to me it seems like the American approach is winning economy wise.

It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the success of a society.

I can see the pros of the European approach, but reducing equality can not be the only goal. If the economy keeps falling behind, the median standard of living will keep dropping. A strong economy can adopt higher taxes and more social services due to election pressures. A fallen behind economy will find it much harder to jump back.

The other problem is that tons of European talent keeps going to the US. The people who have the skills to make higher wages might not care about inequality too much, since they would be the ones benefitting from it. I am not sure how Europe can solve that though.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#53

Post by wyager »

swalling wrote: post #17

”Average incomes have grown much faster than in western Europe or Japan. Also adjusted for purchasing power, they exceed $50,000 in Mississippi, America’s poorest state—higher than in France.” The article casually dismisses the counterpoint that the US trades high income for a lower social safety net. The average French person has a life expectancy of 82. In Mississippi it’s 74.9, on par with Lithuania. Even Vietnam…

> The average French person has a life expectancy of 82. In Mississippi it’s 74.9

Like 90% of these "gotchas" for southern states (including lifespan comparisons) end up decreasing or disappearing entirely when you condition on racial demographics. Not to say that invalidates the problem; just that comparing Mississippi to France doesn't make sense at all from a demographic standpoint.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#54

Post by nosianu »

silexia wrote: post #16

Freedom (less government bureaucracy, regulation, and interference) is the major advantage America has over other nations. Politicians try to gain more power by scaring people, but the gov has a terrible track record of making promises it never keeps, but also never returning powers it has taken.

It is to a large degree government policies that drive US success. For example, the steps taken for energy independence (and then some), or moving manufacturing back, and support future tech - see the current disagreements with Europe about trade, or how they supported private space companies. There is soooooo much policies stuff going on that gets lost in the headlines about more visible things, fortunately, on this very website alone I get to see a g glimpse occasionally. The rest I see when I follow other headlines, such as the mentioned trade disagreements.

You can see the hand of the US government in a lot of business places, trade, subsidies, it's trillions being moved in support of US business interests. And I like what I see a lot more than what I see here in Europe, and I notice that no matter who's president, these things happen regardless.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-manufacturing-factory-...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-03/us-and-eu...

The investments into chip manufacturing too, they cost so much this always has to happen with loads of government support, directly and indirectly.

https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2023/02/biden-h...

https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-require-companies-winn...

> $52-billion U.S. semiconductor manufacturing and research program

You can keep blaming "inept government", but without it the US would be an insignificant backwater. Always and everywhere, since long before industrial revolution, business and government had always had to work hand in hand to create success. England did it, in support of the merchants, later of the new capitalists, Japan did it, South Korea did it, China did it, everybody did it. Very early even the church occasionally played a role, Mendel's famous beans genetic experiment wasn't a random fluke but part of an organized program in support of the textile industry, to find out the rules of inheritance to be able to select the right sheep more efficiently for more and better wool.

Silicon Valley was made possible by government too: https://youtu.be/ZTC_RxWN_xo

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#55

Post by hotpotamus »

wyager wrote: post #53
swalling wrote: post #17

”Average incomes have grown much faster than in western Europe or Japan. Also adjusted for purchasing power, they exceed $50,000 in Mississippi, America’s poorest state—higher than in France.” The article casually dismisses the counterpoint that the US trades high income for a lower social safety net. The average French person has a life expectancy of 82. In Mississippi it’s 74.9, on par with Lithuania. Even Vietnam…

> The average French person has a life expectancy of 82. In Mississippi it’s 74.9 Like 90% of these "gotchas" for southern states (including lifespan comparisons) end up decreasing or disappearing entirely when you condition on racial demographics. Not to say that invalidates the problem; just that comparing Mississippi to France doesn't make sense at all from a demographic standpoint.

Why does race need to be brought into it?

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#56

Post by ddol »

CalRobert wrote: post #10
crop_rotation wrote: post #8

How would Europe even compete with America in the long run. America just has so many advantages (massive influx of talented workers, one country, better equiped with natural resources, the supremacy of the dolllar). There are many other reasons some of which might not seem clear cut. The average American or European life requires an economy which is on average much better than the average for the world. If you do not…

No idea, but as an American who moved to Europe it's crazy how much ambition is casually discouraged ("the notions on him!") and investors are chickenshit scaredycats offering tiny numbers. Pathetic pay too. But I still live in Europe because I prefer well designed cities and everyone (mostly) having ample vacation time.

As a European who moved to California the societal stigma around young ambition in Ireland was brutal. When I started my first company in my 20’s and spoke to friends and family about it a phrase I frequently heard was “ah here, why would you stick your head above the parapet?”[0]

Having seen the kinds of Irish startups that get funding from Irish VCs they both tend to be run by Irish men in their 50’s/60’s who’ve been senior managers at big companies. Having reviewed a couple dozen Irish pitch decks it looks like funding flows based on who you know with little scrutiny given to ideas or even business fundamentals.

[0] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/put-h...

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#57

Post by fkcgnad »

crop_rotation wrote: post #8

How would Europe even compete with America in the long run. America just has so many advantages (massive influx of talented workers, one country, better equiped with natural resources, the supremacy of the dolllar). There are many other reasons some of which might not seem clear cut. The average American or European life requires an economy which is on average much better than the average for the world. If you do not…

They don't compete. They reap the benefits of technological innovation without the need to push their own citizens to do the same.

It's a smart strategy. Smart phones , AI and Google come from the states, but that doesn't even matter given that Europeans have full access to everything.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#58

Post by camillomiller »

satvikpendem wrote: post #39
camillomiller wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also generating insane levels of inequality, so it really only works if you subscribe to the capitalistic illusion that GDP is a good indicator of the success of a society.

Well, the concepts of regulated free markets, free trade between nations, and generally free immigration have created the single largest increase in human living standards in history.

Check your facts. As much as I am a firm European democrat, you might wanna see what Chinese “state driven capitalist communism” has done between 1975 and today. Again, if the measure is number of people lifted out of poverty, China wins hands down.

Now, as much as we can’t consider China’s success without considering the lack of freedoms inscribed within the communist social pact, we can’t take just the good of American capitalism by only using gdp or trade volume as an indicator, because - again - inequality and lack of basic human needs and life safety wouldn’t be included.

Reference: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#59

Post by dauertewigkeit »

psychlops wrote: post #11

Manufacturing is noticeably absent from the list of successes.

But America bet on the winning horse. Manufacturing no longer brings in the big bucks. We are living in the information age. In particular, there is only so much growth that you can have in a well developed industrial sector.

Re: Lessons from America’s astonishing economic record

#60

Post by marianatom »

camillomiller wrote: post #42
marianatom wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lower life expectancy in US in general can be attributed to a more unhealthy diet and less walking, which is on the flip side due to US's economic success - affordance for more food and richer food, as well as affordance for car as transportation. Another attribution is the larger amount of immigrants, which as a segment has lower income level and thus lower life expectancy

“Richer” food? UberLOL! By what standard exactly is pathological caloric surplus funded by big food considered “richer”?

technically a higher caloric diet is considered "richer" :)
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