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Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

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Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#331

Post by [deleted] »

vjk800 wrote: post #297
polotics wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am getting the feeling you are being disingenuous: a record is a record, a records that gets deleted after 24 hours was still a record. This is a truth based only on the meaning of the word "record". The chat application was not kept from preserving history, it was designed to actively delete history after 24 hours If there is a court order to not delete history, then the application was designed to do the opposite…

Everything you do on a computer is recorded, at least ephemerally, in the computer memory. Does deleting stuff from the memory count as destroying evidence? If not, how is it different from deleting stuff from somewhere else? I mean, deleting information that is not used is part of how computer operate, if you're going to disallow that, you better have a pretty huge tech infrastructure to store all those memory dumps…

[deleted]

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#332

Post by mrobins »

A fascinating angle on this is how critical chat has become to modern business communication- to the point that the highest paid execs with the highest paid lawyers use it even when doing so is knowingly flying in the face of danger.

As others here have pointed out, conversations not recorded (ie phone, in person, probably Zoom) are not subject to holds. Rather than reduce risk by moving convos offline, they chose to increase risk by creating special mechanisms to flaunt court rules.

That seems to indicate a calculus that said ditching chat is either a) impossible to train people to do in the right circumstances or b) too burdensome. It’s interesting that’s the case even at the highest levels.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#334

Post by polotics »

tantalor wrote: post #329
dxdm wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does deleting stuff from the memory count as destroying evidence? Maybe? The line is more blurry here, but there are probably cases where it's more or less easy to make the distinction. If data is recorded on a permanent medium, it can be arbitrarily retrieved, an explicit delete operation is needed to get rid of it, and this deletion can be scheduled to happen at an arbitrary time - that might easily be understood…

What if the 24 hour chats are only stored in RAM? That's not permanent.

RAM is permanent as long as you don't pull the plug. If you've been told to preserve evidence, and still pull the plug, then you did not do what you were told to do.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#335

Post by auggierose »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #320
auggierose wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not familiar with the details in this case, but it makes total sense to me that an "off the record" chat doesn't need to be preserved, even by a court order to keep all records. Let's assume there is a chat app that is officially designed to be off-the-record, and everyone who uses it assumes it is off-the-record. Let's assume technology-wise, there are indeed no records kept, everything is ephemeral. Should the cour…

You are answering your own question yourself. Read carefully and notice how you use the world record in your post. > Let's assume technology-wise, there are indeed no records kept, everything is ephemeral. Should the court order then apply to those chats? No, there is no record to be kept. > Now assume that the programmer of the app made an error, and accidentally records are kept for 24 hours. Should the court order…

Let's assume I said this instead:

> Now assume that the programmer of the app made an error, and accidentally DATA is kept for 24 hours. As part of the error, the DATA is also automatically deleted after 24 hours.

What now?

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#336

Post by auggierose »

nolok wrote: post #326
auggierose wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I explained why it isn't that clear-cut, even when it is about deleting data. I guess that's why there are courts, and not only HN opinions.

It is clear cut. Let's give you a concrete exemple we have had rulings on without any computer involved, which are almost a 1:1 situation: you are on litigation hold, and aren't allowed to destroy any records. You do an oral meeting, with no plans to put it on paper. Unknown to you, someone took notes during the meeting, say your secretary because she didn't feel well that day and wanted to be sure to remember it the…

What if she used the notes, and then destroyed them herself, without me ever noticing anything?

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#337

Post by shadowgovt »

scarface74 wrote: post #240
sitkack wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over corporations, yes please!

Yes because the minute that someone from the “other” (whichever side you don’t like) party gets in control do you think they are going to do things that you want? Desantis just tried to push through a law that said you have to register with the state if you report on politicians. Do you like that proposed law? Do you want the government to have access to all communications between you and your coworkers? Do you want…

Does that amaze you? Because you should look at the unanswerable moneyed interests that got DeSantis elected in the first place.

There's currently an investigation going on about how one particular former President may have broken the reporting law. But for that law, his "catch-and-bury" agreement to keep unpalatable stories about him out of the public eye was perfectly legal.

So yes, I do want the organization with a monopoly on violence to have more power of oversight of people with power through money. Especially as long as who has control of those levers changes with the frequency it does.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#338

Post by auggierose »

zeckalpha wrote: post #330
auggierose wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not familiar with the details in this case, but it makes total sense to me that an "off the record" chat doesn't need to be preserved, even by a court order to keep all records. Let's assume there is a chat app that is officially designed to be off-the-record, and everyone who uses it assumes it is off-the-record. Let's assume technology-wise, there are indeed no records kept, everything is ephemeral. Should the cour…

Off the record chat is about encryption and MITM rather than retention. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-Record_Messaging

Interesting, but really not relevant.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#339

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

auggierose wrote: post #335
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are answering your own question yourself. Read carefully and notice how you use the world record in your post. > Let's assume technology-wise, there are indeed no records kept, everything is ephemeral. Should the court order then apply to those chats? No, there is no record to be kept. > Now assume that the programmer of the app made an error, and accidentally records are kept for 24 hours. Should the court order…

Let's assume I said this instead: > Now assume that the programmer of the app made an error, and accidentally DATA is kept for 24 hours. As part of the error, the DATA is also automatically deleted after 24 hours. What now?

Nothing changed. You know it’s a record. That’s why it’s the word you naturally used to describe it. It’s not some kind of complex trick question.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#340

Post by pclmulqdq »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #178
pclmulqdq wrote: post #30

I moved from an HFT firm to Google. The attitude difference with respect to document holds was hilarious. At the HFT firm, the attitude was, "we're constantly being sued (by the SEC and others), so we treat all of our records like they're under litigation holds, just in case the SEC claims they wanted them, even the off-topic slack channels." At Google, the attitude was, "we're constantly getting sued, so we treat al…

This is the same story in the medical space. Chat history is deleted after 7 days. Emails are deleted after 18 months. Cloud store documents are deleted after 3 years. Is all about legal downside. Of course, quality approved necessary documents are retained for the, entire duration of the company

IIRC "quality approved necessary documents" are also exempt from discovery in malpractice cases, so there's no risk to holding onto them.
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