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The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

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Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#141
post #131
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because compliance is mostly about documentation. glorified checklists. but checklists work (you might have heard about surgeons leaving medical tools in patients, and checklists eliminating this problem, seemingly the dumbest simplest technology, yet it's very powerful compared to the default of nothing) of course the quality of answers matter, but that's on the environment (auditors, regulators, industry best pract…

>but checklists work (you might have heard about surgeons leaving medical tools in patients, and checklists eliminating this problem, seemingly the dumbest simplest technology, yet it's very powerful compared to the default of nothing) These glorified checklists also backfire all the time. With the surgeon it's indeed simple. With software what I see is that certification and process often lessens quality. Why you as…

I'm failing to see how this relates, whatsoever, to the discussion at hand.

I don't mean any offense toward you.

Just having an incredibly hard time making any sense of what you wrote.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#142
post #89

(Note: I work for Red Hat) I'm constantly amazed that people still don't understand why Red Hat makes money, and this article won't enlighten you as it doesn't understand it as well as being full of other incidental mistakes (like their description of CentOS is way off the mark). Red Hat takes Linux and certifies it against all kinds of government, safety, privacy etc standardards, such as PCI and FIPS and numerous l…

Does redhat have customors who don't need government compliance? If so, why do they use red hat?

Yes, banks use RHEL as Red Hat Professional Services replaced the old Sun and HP systems they were using 20 years ago.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#143
post #17

Red Hat worked because it was a time (the height of the dot-com bubble) when open source operating systems were something of a Wild West - rapidly becoming an industry standard, but not well understood by existing businesses. Red Hat provided guidance for that transition. Confluent was arguably also able to do this for a similar reason - at the time they launched, the Kafka model was becoming vital, but was also nove…

Side note on Confluent’s products. Thanks for that link - the “Disaggregation of Revenue” table where the 73% and 61% numbers came from shows that Confluent Cloud revenue increased from $94M in 2021 to $211M in 2022, which was more than Confluent Platform’s revenue growth. If those growth rates continue then Confluent Cloud will very soon be the majority of their revenue.

I always take those numbers with a big pinch of salt. There is a wave, in the management world, that wants every business to be "Cloud” (i.e. SaaS), because of the (largely correct) assumption that it enables better rent-seeking and long-term lock-in. So every vendor is officially busy "pivoting to a subscription model" and wants to show growth in that area to investors, so they file everything they can under "cloud" divisions.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#144
post #89

(Note: I work for Red Hat) I'm constantly amazed that people still don't understand why Red Hat makes money, and this article won't enlighten you as it doesn't understand it as well as being full of other incidental mistakes (like their description of CentOS is way off the mark). Red Hat takes Linux and certifies it against all kinds of government, safety, privacy etc standardards, such as PCI and FIPS and numerous l…

It makes me cynical when most certifications and compliance involves a lot of paperwork and not much in the way of changes to software.

I think there are checklists (good, safe operation) and certifications (paperwork).

Seen verifications for ISO-Something, were incredible efforts invested to get the certificate. Looking at the actual technical side…I’m worried.

Certifications which were influenced by people which follow their personal targets are a way to block competition and innovation. Certifications influenced by people with right mindest could help (e.g. require source access, data access, compatibility) a lot.

What I wonder as user:

What does Red Hat and Canonical actually test when ThinkPads are certified?

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#145
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but checklists work (you might have heard about surgeons leaving medical tools in patients, and checklists eliminating this problem, seemingly the dumbest simplest technology, yet it's very powerful compared to the default of nothing) These glorified checklists also backfire all the time. With the surgeon it's indeed simple. With software what I see is that certification and process often lessens quality. Why you as…

I'm failing to see how this relates, whatsoever, to the discussion at hand. I don't mean any offense toward you. Just having an incredibly hard time making any sense of what you wrote.

I work for a company that ships safety-certified software. We, or often our customers, have discovered bugs in that software. We do not fix the bugs because one single small bugfix means re-certifying the entire software, a process that takes months of producing proof of matching the safety case plus many more months of updating and approving accompanying documentation and going through an audit. Everything has to be re-touched.

We just issue an updated defect list to go with the software and our customers needs to work around the bug. Known unfixed bugs are a fact of life in certified software. Update releases are not. Customers pay a premium for this because they, too, would have to go through the same pain and expense on their side.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#146
post #89

(Note: I work for Red Hat) I'm constantly amazed that people still don't understand why Red Hat makes money, and this article won't enlighten you as it doesn't understand it as well as being full of other incidental mistakes (like their description of CentOS is way off the mark). Red Hat takes Linux and certifies it against all kinds of government, safety, privacy etc standardards, such as PCI and FIPS and numerous l…

Next level of the game is to invent the certifications in collaboration with regulators and then sell software that is certified.

The real next level game is to get a patent you own into a standard.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#147
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is why RedHat is declaring CentOS end-of-life: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/fastest-road-centos-linux-red...

I know of companies with millions of servers that switched to CentOS stream instead.

Yes if you have millions of servers you would be using Katello (open source Satellite) anyway and then you only have advantages from CentOS Stream.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#148
post #89

(Note: I work for Red Hat) I'm constantly amazed that people still don't understand why Red Hat makes money, and this article won't enlighten you as it doesn't understand it as well as being full of other incidental mistakes (like their description of CentOS is way off the mark). Red Hat takes Linux and certifies it against all kinds of government, safety, privacy etc standardards, such as PCI and FIPS and numerous l…

Does redhat have customors who don't need government compliance? If so, why do they use red hat?

"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#149
post #89

(Note: I work for Red Hat) I'm constantly amazed that people still don't understand why Red Hat makes money, and this article won't enlighten you as it doesn't understand it as well as being full of other incidental mistakes (like their description of CentOS is way off the mark). Red Hat takes Linux and certifies it against all kinds of government, safety, privacy etc standardards, such as PCI and FIPS and numerous l…

It's interesting to see this in play at different companies. Some of it is "real"...that is those requirements really do apply. In many places, though, it's just inertia. Like, back when the companies had SunOS or HPUX, they made internal standards about regulations, or support contracts, etc, to match. Then when Linux came around, RedHat fit their view of the world well.

It's also interesting to see what happens there in some places over time. The older group that manages on-prem is able to hold the "RedHat only" line. But, other groups decide what goes on it, so everything running there is running in non-Redhat containers or nested VMs. It turns into a bulky, extra hypervisor-like layer.

Re: The Red Hat model only worked for Red Hat

#150
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When performance matters, stored procedures are the way to go, not wasting network traffic and CPU cycles on the client, As it so happens, these additional runtimes are great and safer way to extend PL/SQL, pg/SQL, T-SQL,... than writing C extensions. While I agree in principle, in practice to me it feels like the tooling just isn't there. Testing and debugging is a bit more difficult than with other languages (e.g…

Let's not blame databases for lack of skills or interest in how to use them properly. Oracle, Microsoft and IBM provide the same kind of IDEs, graphical debugging and source control as any other programming language. It is this lack of skills that comes up with fads like NoSQL. By the way, there are similar results related to debugging in other languages, where most can't do better than printf debugging, don't know u…

> Let's not blame databases for lack of skills or interest in how to use them properly.

We can (and should) explore the causes for it, sure, but that doesn't change the reality that if you join a project that uses a certain approach, it isn't guaranteed to be using the best possible practices, but rather whatever is popular and easy to do in the industry, unless you're very selective about where you work.

> By the way, there are similar results related to debugging in other languages, where most can't do better than printf debugging, don't know unit tests, profilers or static analysers.

I'd say that this is true to some degree and is also a reflection of either poor tooling, or lack of interest. For example, command line debuggers with arcane keybinds will be harder for the average developer to learn and use effectively, than just clicking on the line they want to stop at in a JetBrains (or similar) IDE and just clicking a custom run button that will launch their entire project in debug mode. The same goes for being able to run either your entire test suite or a particular test by just clicking a button in the source file, helpfully shown by a good IDE.

Things get worse when you want to test the integration with an actual data source (like an external API or a database), because in some cases you'll have to mock so much of it that you won't be testing anything remotely close to the real thing, or will have to deal with bootstrapping an instance of the API (if you can even self-host the full thing) or a real database, which will be really good from how truthful your tests are for real world use cases, but will need certain configuration and resources for setting it all up. Sometimes you can get away with something close enough, like using an in-memory database behind an ORM, but some of those abstractions end up leaky. Even worse if you want to test your integration against cloud services.

Static analysis tools are not without their issues either: something like SonarQube is good theoretically, but will have you struggling against setting up the actual scanner (including mundane stuff like source file encoding) on your CI server, setting up separate configurations if you ever want to run it against your local codebase and will be hard to configure in regards to what should or shouldn't actually trip up the analysis and throw warnings at you, because not all of the recommendations will be even viable for your framework and how it expects code to be written.

> It is this lack of skills that comes up with fads like NoSQL. ... The outcome of bootcamps or CS degrees without sound engineering practices, while people label themselves "engineer".

Does it mean that we shouldn't do these things? No, but it definitely means that we shouldn't just wave our hands around and suggest that it's just an issue of education, when actually trying to use the current technologies is often like banging your head against a wall. Use what works well and causes the least headaches, be open to eventually trying new things as the ecosystem and tooling improve, but don't stray too far from what others do successfully for now either.

From what I've seen, the things that have absolutely improved are schema versioning solutions (and thus, versioned DB migrations) and the ability to run database instances locally for development (in throwaway containers), so that you can test breaking migrations with believable seeded data before it ever needs to run on a shared environment. Codegen still could be better (e.g. generating Java/.NET/... entity code for an ORM in a schema-first approach), but some forwards/backwards engineering has been around for a decent amount of time at least, when dealing with models (for example, in MySQL Workbench, though pgAdmin is still lagging behind there). There are even tools for easier development of APIs, like Hasura, PostGraphile, PostgREST and so on, though the adoption there varies.

Edit: oh, another thing that was really good was recent versions of Oracle letting you automatically generate indices for your schema based on how it's actually queried, in case the queries evolve with time but nobody reviews the indices. Except that the automatically generated ones couldn't be removed manually, which felt like bad design. Despite that, more RDBMSes should have that sort of functionality, or the equivalent of SQL Tuning Advisor, that gives you actionable advice. Oracle was a mess to work with for other reasons, though.

For doing in-database processing, even when you use good solutions like DataGrip, things still don't feel as good as when compared to what you can knock together using your typical Java + Spring + Hibernate setup, C# + ASP.NET + EF, or other equivalents. I'd personally use DB views for complex queries, or dynamically generate SQL (like in MyBatis XML) to not get too caught up with ORM idiosyncrasies, but would implement lots of logic in the apps still.

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