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Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

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271–280 of 402 posts

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'm not familiar with what a legal hold is. Would they be obliged to take audio recordings or minutes of meetings due to this?

Not a lawyer. When a legal hold is issued, the company is instructed not to destroy potential evidence related to the case. They don’t have to perform additional recordings and minutes. But they exist, they can’t destroy it.

> Not a lawyer. When a legal hold is issued, the company is instructed not to destroy potential evidence related to the case.

Not a lawyer, but I have helped implement record management systems, and a requirement is always support for legal holds.

If the reg affairs or legal people were told "oh, yeah, we're deleting all these company records even if they have holds" they'd have strokes. Or quit. Or both.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#272

It's always really funny/amazing that seemingly smart people think that the legal system can be "hacked" by doing cheap stuff like deleting history. It's going to come out and it's going to look bad. In an actual case that I was involved in, the other party was an ex-lawyer and had a rigorous practise of not keeping records in case something bad was discovered. I on the other hand had (terrifyingly, in retrospect) me…

Technical people often see laws like literal programming rather than a fuzzy social construct.

Not only that, they also fail to understand each jurisdition has their own ways, and it isn't an algorithm that can be applied everywhere.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#273
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am getting the feeling you are being disingenuous: a record is a record, a records that gets deleted after 24 hours was still a record. This is a truth based only on the meaning of the word "record". The chat application was not kept from preserving history, it was designed to actively delete history after 24 hours If there is a court order to not delete history, then the application was designed to do the opposite…

I admit I am playing the devil's advocate, but not trying to be disingenuous. The intention behind an ephemeral chat application is to allow private communication without creating a record. From the end user's perspective, the messages are thought to be self-destructing objects that are kept just long enough to be read by their recipient. The way this is achieved in practice is an implementation detail that end users…

> I admit I am playing the devil's advocate

Are you literally appointed by the Pope? Part of the process of canonisation?

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> routinely opted to move from history-on rooms to history-off Chats to hold sensitive conversations The way this is worded there's no record, so there's no "slated for deletion"? I guess the question becomes, if it exists inside computer memory, is that legally equivalent to "writing down piece of paper" and thusly is considered destroying evidence? If I write something in disappearing ink (let's say it perfectly di…

There is a record. It exists for 24 hours. It’s not in just your local computer’s memory. It’s in the cloud, and you can see that history on any of your devices.

> It’s in the cloud, and you can see that history on any of your devices.

For argument's sake, let's say it's not. It's a tunneled connection and all stops in between are only acting as relays.

Is it still wiping it then if it only exists in memory and then gets garbage collected? is that destroying evidence?... maybe...?

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#275
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FRCP 37 ... (e) Failure to Preserve Electronically Stored Information. If electronically stored information that should have been preserved in the anticipation or conduct of litigation is lost because a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve it, and it cannot be restored or replaced through additional discovery, the court: (1) upon finding prejudice to another party from loss of the information, may order…

> a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve it There is nothing reasonable about turning an existing system that was never designed to keep chats at all, to do on a whim, where would cause irreparable damage to the common offering both internally and externally. Once is a pass, but 24 hours is not nearly an established window that a medium can/should be made arbitrarily compliant. It would be a large preced…

That does seem like the obvious argument, but...

Technically, storing chat history from 24 hours isn't really any different than storing it for 30 days. Or 30 years. Either it's on disk somewhere or it isn't, and if it is, then you can just...not delete it. The option to not delete it may not be exposed in the 24 hour option, while it is in the 30 day option, but courts tend to be skeptical of arguments of the form "we have carefully engineered this machine not to have a button to make it follow the law, thus we are blameless".

And of course, even if it really is difficult (obviously it's not impossible given Google's resources and that this is a Google created tool!) to stop deleting the 24 hour chats, Google had other options. For example, they could make a good faith effort to ensure that critical chats took place in channels or group chats where the history setting was enabled. But instead it seems they made an effort to move chats away from there.

> where would cause irreparable damage to the common offering both internally and externally.

I think you'll find that "being able to comply with the law" is generally seen as a positive. It's actually a feature that Google touts quite highly in the contrext of Google Workspace. :)

Also note that this is something that was totally supported by their chat platform when history was enabled, and if you read the PDF, a constant theme is people upset because they were being forced to avoid newer features (like threads) because you couldn't make it delete chats that should be preserved if you were using threads. So rather than the legal system asking Google to damage their offering by adding a feature to it, we see Google asking staff to use a less capable offering because it was lacking the feature.

It is certainly possible that a court may find that what Google did here is okay; that they didn't have an obligation to either not delete relevant conversations that took place in the channels with extended history disabled or hold those conversations in channels with extended history enabled.

But...I wouldn't bet on it. And note that this also came up with the Musk/Twitter saga:

> In McCormick’s letter today, she says she believes Musk did use Signal. “I am forced to conclude that it is likely Defendant’s custodians permitted the automatic deletion of responsive Signal communications between them and possibly others, and that those communications are irretrievably lost,” she writes. Twitter has requested sanctions against Musk, but McCormick hasn’t decided on whether she’ll sanction him yet.

(Source: https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/5/23389568/musk-twitter-sig...)

Musk responded by folding and aggreeing to purchase Twitter after all. And although there were a number of factors there (his case was horrible) a decent chunk was his usage of automatically deleting Signal chats for communications he had an obligation to retain. And whether or not this was okay wasn't ever really an open question; the questions were whether it happened, and if so, what sort of penalties Musk would have to suffer.

> It would be a large precedent.

Not so much.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#276
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The attitude difference with respect to document holds was hilarious." megcampbell@google.com: "it needs to be history off" https://ia802501.us.archive.org/21/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.22... schramm@google.com: "should we have history off for this?" https://ia802501.us.archive.org/21/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.22... margaretlam@google.com: "Hi Tim, if OK, can I ask you to turn history off :)" https://ia802501.us.archive.or…

Wow, that's not just "hey let's be careful", it's "hey, screw all that legal hold stuff, lol!" What kind of legal guidance were these people getting? When I worked at a big corp, we had regular meetings with legal that were reminders of how to treat sensitive subjects and it was taken very seriously.

> What kind of legal guidance were these people getting?

The kind that looked at the Microsoft anti-trust lawsuits in the 90s, and instead of saying, I dunno, "let's not try and gain and wield illegal monopoly powers" but "let's delete all the evidence of us gaining and wielding illegal monopoly power".

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of this is particularly surprising I am not a vengeful type. But people need to be punished to a shocking degree until this is fixed. It should be surprising. And it should have terrible, if not horrific, consequences.

I suspect Google will be made an example of, which surprisingly is usually the case.

Google, as a company, can easily afford any kind of sanction they may face on this.

It was individuals at the company engaging in blatantly illegal activity. I can guarantee they will face no consequences whatsoever over this. Unless for some reason there was some peon class employee involved in it, in which case s/he will be made the scapegoat.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does record "history" - if it didn't, the recipient would see it appear and then immediately vanish in the next refresh of the screen, which is not the case. The thing is, it only keeps the history for a short period of time (hours/days). That's not the same thing as an unrecorded call, which isn't recorded for any period at all.

That is understood. However the medium begets a conversation around how most communication isn't recorded anyways, in this example if it were a phone call.

But it’s not, which is the point. It’s a chat with a recorded history, whose history gets deleted after some time.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. The law is kind of silly. A chat system that doesn't store history is functionally equivalent to an unrecorded call, but I'm guessing they would not consider an unrecorded call destruction of evidence.

If you have two internal phone systems, one of which logs calls and is the default, the legal system would look on moving to the other unrecorded system in the middle of a call with the same kindness. Intent matters in law and the intent was to evade evidence rules.

> the legal system would look on moving to the other unrecorded system in the middle of a call with the same kindness.

I don’t know about that. Not producing evidence and destroying evidence are very different actions, even though the intent (of not leaving evidence) is similar.

In the US, moving conversations from a recorded to an unrecorded medium would likely be covered under the 5th. Having conversations on a recorded medium then destroying the record, not so much.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#280
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my company (not finance, and never gotten sued), documents are ephemeral primarily due to GDPR reasons. Many of them contain various personal data of clients and/or employees, legal makes us specify for how long each service needs to hold on to it, and purge as soon as possible to minimize chance of leaks.

It’s a funny intersection of hold requirements. Litigation and one set of compliance requires holding records for at least this much time, GDPR and other such things require keeping records no more than some particular time. I haven’t seen the case when the intersection is an empty interval. But I imagine then one would choose to justify breaking one of the least important ones.

It's where being able to have strong guarantees about how customer data is being used becomes critical.

I'm required to keep evidence about your KYC information and your financial transactions for compliance purposes for (e.g.) 7 years after you stop doing business with me. If I'm using them for that purpose I'd be in the clear GDPR-wise.

However, the day I break off doing business with you I need to stop using them for marketing or sales leads - that would be a GDPR breach.

Where I suspect it will get very messy for companies is the sexy new "hoover all the data into ML models" is going to come a GDPR cropper because I doubt most of the people doing it can show that they purged it when their relationship with the data owner ended, if they even had one in the first place. They're sure as fuck violating copyrights all over the place.

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