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Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

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Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#21
Relevant, from Matt Levine's Money stuff (regarding SEC recordkeeping rules, which are similar but not quite the same as litigation holds):

> We have talked before about the SEC’s probe into how the employees of big banks discussed their work in text messages and chat apps like WhatsApp on their personal cell phones. The SEC has collected big fines from the biggest banks because, it has said, these chats violated the SEC’s recordkeeping requirements. When the SEC fined 15 banks and brokers for this stuff in September, SEC Chair Gary Gensler said:

> > Since the 1930s, such recordkeeping has been vital to preserve market integrity. As technology changes, it’s even more important that registrants appropriately conduct their communications about business matters within only official channels, and they must maintain and preserve those communications.

> From the perspective of the banks, I have argued, this is a novel expansion of the SEC’s authority. When the SEC created its rules on recordkeeping, it required banks to retain copies of their “inter-office memoranda,” but it was 1948 and those memoranda were produced with carbon paper; they were formal business records memorializing serious policies. In the 2020s, WhatsApp chats are, in large part, substitutes not for formal memoranda but for talking to someone in person. When I was a banker, I have written, “There were some mornings when I sent more than 100 inter-office memoranda, though like 20 of them would be ‘lol’ or ‘fml.’” In 1948, the SEC would not have dreamed of demanding a searchable archive of all of the informal chats held at a brokerage: That was not technologically feasible, and also did not seem to be the point of its rules. In 2022, it was feasible, and the SEC did demand it, and when the brokers were missing some chats they paid a billion dollars in fines.

> From the perspective of the SEC, as a fine-maximizing business, this series of investigations is so attractive:

> - Every bank has some bankers who did WhatsApp chats, so you can fine all of them, and they all have a lot of money and depend on the SEC’s goodwill, so they’ll pay.

> - You don’t have to prove bad intent, or harm: Simply finding some WhatsApp chats about deals, or clients, or market conditions, or anything, is enough to extract a big fine. If the SEC had gotten the personal messages of a bunch of bankers and found them doing a bunch of crimes, it surely would have extracted more fines from them, but as far as I can tell it never found anything like that. The bankers had normal businesslike chats about client meetings or markets or whatever, but the fact that they were on WhatsApp was enough to incur a billion dollars of liability.

> - Banks will learn their lesson from these enforcement actions, and the lesson is “keep all communications on official channels and preserve all of them,” which will make it easier for the SEC to catch future misbehavior and fine it comprehensively.

> If I worked at a bank I’d be very annoyed by the WhatsApp stuff, but as it is I sort of admire it: It is, for the SEC, a clever bit of business, a bold expansion into a lucrative and growing market, and an investment in making its future business easier.

> The SEC clearly agrees, because its WhatsApp Fines Division keeps moving into new markets:

> > Major hedge funds have been asked by US regulators to review certain employees’ personal mobile phones as part of a mushrooming probe into Wall Street’s use of unofficial messaging platforms like WhatsApp to conduct business.

> > The Securities and Exchange Commission recently asked Steve Cohen’s Point72 Asset Management, Ken Griffin’s Citadel and several other firms to search through the devices for evidence of business dealings on unapproved channels, according to people familiar with the matter who asked not to be identified discussing the private requests. The SEC is also probing the practices of brokerages, money managers and private equity firms.

> > Representatives for Point72 and Citadel declined to comment. Neither firm has been accused of wrongdoing. The inquiries are part of a broader request that also went to other hedge funds, the people said. The SEC declined to comment.

> > The asset-management industry is quickly emerging as the new front in the SEC’s sweeping look into whether financial professionals are using unofficial communications to do things like cut deals, win clients or make trades. …

> The appeal of this investigation is that at every big company there will be people who have texted about business on their personal cell phones, and the right model is to go down the list and hit all the biggest financial businesses up for fines.

> It really is wild that the SEC’s official position is now that it is illegal to “use unofficial communications to do things like cut deals, win clients or make trades.” “Conduct their communications about business matters within only official channels”! Imagine if that was really the rule! You can’t have lunch with a client and talk about business, or have beers with your colleagues and gripe about work, because that does not create a searchable archive for the SEC to review.

> Of course the SEC does not entirely mean this. Yet. But in like five years, technology — and the SEC’s interpretation of the rules — will have advanced to the point that banks will get fined if their bankers talk about business with clients on the golf course. “You should have been wearing your bank-issued virtual reality headset and recorded the conversation,” the SEC will say, or I guess “you should have played golf in your bank’s official metaverse, which records all golf conversations for compliance review, rather than on a physical golf course.” The golf course is an unofficial channel! No business allowed!

When litigation holds were invented, they covered a certain form of formal communication—stuff that was written down, and official, and represented the considered positions of the company; not the emotional and not-yet-sanded down resentment of the rank-and-file. But now so much more casual conversation takes place in a written format then at any other point in time. It is not surprising to me that, if you pored over the thousands and thousands of chat messages from Google employees in areas around pricing, or supplier relations, you'll find some resentment and chafing at the restrictions imposed by Google's compliance lawyers.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#22
post #8

Pardon my ignorance, but why isn't Pichai allowed to have chat conversations that don't record history? Was there a case against Google already that bans this or something? And couldn't this just be circumvented by having an in-person meeting?

> why isn't [...] Was there a case against Google already that bans this or something? According to [1], "The DOJ maintains Google should have suspended its auto-delete practices by 2019, when it was clear litigation was coming." I found more details in [2] on the legal topic of evidence spoliation that might be interesting, though I'm not a lawyer and don't know what which law(s) are relevant in this case. > And cou…

> Yes, but there's presumably a difference between deleting evidence vs. not having it in the first place.

Hmm, so what if the chat said “let’s continue this discussion in the conference room”?

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why isn't [...] Was there a case against Google already that bans this or something? According to [1], "The DOJ maintains Google should have suspended its auto-delete practices by 2019, when it was clear litigation was coming." I found more details in [2] on the legal topic of evidence spoliation that might be interesting, though I'm not a lawyer and don't know what which law(s) are relevant in this case. > And cou…

Thanks. The law is kind of silly. A chat system that doesn't store history is functionally equivalent to an unrecorded call, but I'm guessing they would not consider an unrecorded call destruction of evidence.

It does record "history" - if it didn't, the recipient would see it appear and then immediately vanish in the next refresh of the screen, which is not the case. The thing is, it only keeps the history for a short period of time (hours/days). That's not the same thing as an unrecorded call, which isn't recorded for any period at all.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why isn't [...] Was there a case against Google already that bans this or something? According to [1], "The DOJ maintains Google should have suspended its auto-delete practices by 2019, when it was clear litigation was coming." I found more details in [2] on the legal topic of evidence spoliation that might be interesting, though I'm not a lawyer and don't know what which law(s) are relevant in this case. > And cou…

> Yes, but there's presumably a difference between deleting evidence vs. not having it in the first place. Hmm, so what if the chat said “let’s continue this discussion in the conference room”?

Presumably that would be legally OK, as long as that message itself wasn't deleted.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#26
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complaint details the reason it was not allowed in this case, though would be normally: the topics were subject to legal holds. > Like Mr. Pichai, other key Google employees, including those in leadership roles, routinely opted to move from history-on rooms to history-off Chats to hold sensitive conversations, even though they knew they were subject to legal holds. Indeed, they did so even when discussing topics…

Interesting, is there any documentation about the legal holds details?

https://support.google.com/vault/answer/7664657?hl=en

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#27

No wonder Google execs wanted us all back in the office really quickly in 2021.

I will admit that I suspect some of the reason does indeed lie in having 'impromptu' conversations, which are helpfully not recorded anywhere. The other two pieces are real estate and 'feeling' of control. I am not sure which one bears more weight.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#28
post #3

Then, nine seconds later, Mr. Pichai apparently attempted (unsuccessfully) to delete this incriminating message. lol

It really seems to me that to succeed in business in the US one has to skirt the line of legality with regularity.

At least, to succeed in substantive illegality, it becomes necessary to skirt and even cross the line of procedural illegality to conceal the substantive illegality.

Whether substantive illegality is necessary to succeed in business is another question, but it seems to be a common choice.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#29

None of this is particularly surprising, but it's very amusing to see the litigation go this route. It's incredible common for corporate legal to recommend purging data or communications no longer relevant, or to advise avoiding specific means of communication (like email) due to retention challenges. It's incredibly dumb to explicitly discuss avoiding leading a paper trail with respect to subjects where litigation i…

I think worse they were under injunction to retain all communications. They were essentially destroying discoverable material. AFAIK the result is in the court the court can assume the material was damaging to their case and treat it with prejudice.

Re: Google CEO: “can we change the setting of this group to history-off” [pdf]

#30
I moved from an HFT firm to Google. The attitude difference with respect to document holds was hilarious.

At the HFT firm, the attitude was, "we're constantly being sued (by the SEC and others), so we treat all of our records like they're under litigation holds, just in case the SEC claims they wanted them, even the off-topic slack channels."

At Google, the attitude was, "we're constantly getting sued, so we treat all of our records as being as ephemeral as possible so we can avoid having a record of what we're doing."

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