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WebGPU Fundamentals

webgpufundamentals.org

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Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#91

Post by lacasito25 »

Razengan wrote: post #64

Regarding all the arguments about ever-increasing browser complexity and the resulting inefficiency: Why is nobody asking the reverse question: How to make operating systems more like browsers?? From the end user's PoV (consider someone who isn't computer savvy) what are the actual objective differences in usability, between the OS and browser? -- • OS: Apps have their own windows and menu bars. • Browser: Multiple a…

one can hope that with web assembly we can get closer to that dream, and eventually just remove the whole web browser.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#92

Post by krylon »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #58
z3t4 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The browser is basically an OS ontop of an OS ontop of. .. turtles all the way down

The browser is basically an OS ontop of an OS ontop of. .. turtles all the way down The OS runs on hardware, what do you think is below the OS you're running?

Intel has its ME which last I heard runs Minix, AMD has the PSP, though I don't know what kind of software that runs.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#93

Post by cjbgkagh »

mpldr wrote: post #19

Question for discussion: when have we reached the point where the Browser Feature-creep is too much and we say "okay, a browser probably doesn't need this"? Because after seeing WebUSB and WebGPU I think my personal limit has been reached.

I think of the browser as another kind of OS, and as Microsoft keeps making their OS worse the browser is a nice reprieve. The more that goes into the browser the more I can ditch Microsoft and hopefully be rid of it all together.

Though ironically maybe given that the browser can do so much is the reason that Microsoft has to focus on ‘value add’ crap instead of just a rock solid OS. Which sets up a self reinforcing cycle. Microsoft should recognize that this was intentional move by Google and not take the bait.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#94

Post by 2h »

tiagod wrote: post #85
reaperducer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to be able to interact with synths over MIDI in the browser Help me understand why this is. Is it because there aren't native programs for the platform you're using? Is it to allow plug-ins or other abilities that wouldn't otherwise be available? Is it so that you can sync up with other musicians and play together in a way that wouldn't be possible without a browser? choose a browser that doesn't implement tho…

Because it's really cool to try out experimental instruments other poeple have made by simply opening a webpage, without having to execute untrusted native code that could have bad consequences.

AKA laziness. yes, lets please bloat of the scope of browsers until they are no longer recognizable, so that you dont have to install some software.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#95

Post by 2h »

RGamma wrote: post #44
mpldr wrote: post #19

Question for discussion: when have we reached the point where the Browser Feature-creep is too much and we say "okay, a browser probably doesn't need this"? Because after seeing WebUSB and WebGPU I think my personal limit has been reached.

Free yourself from the notion that a web browser purely browses The Web. It's nowadays also a cross-platform insta-deployment GUI application runtime environment with mostly bad native OS integration and performance characteristics (both ~improving, there's even native filesystem access now). In any case it's Good Enough (C), so it sticks.

> Free yourself from the notion that a web browser purely browses The Web.

Free yourself from the notion that a web browser should do anything more than browsing the web. native applications have existed for decades, no reason to bloat the scope of a browser.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#96

Post by 2h »

saiojd wrote: post #32
mpldr wrote: post #19

Question for discussion: when have we reached the point where the Browser Feature-creep is too much and we say "okay, a browser probably doesn't need this"? Because after seeing WebUSB and WebGPU I think my personal limit has been reached.

Why does it bother you that browsers have many features? At this point browsers are essentially a cross-platform VM and it really seems like this trend will only accentuate in the future.

because I want limited scope tools. if I want something on the GPU, I can just write a native tool. I dont need the browser to do anything beyond web browsing.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#97

Post by jeroenhd »

Razengan wrote: post #64

Regarding all the arguments about ever-increasing browser complexity and the resulting inefficiency: Why is nobody asking the reverse question: How to make operating systems more like browsers?? From the end user's PoV (consider someone who isn't computer savvy) what are the actual objective differences in usability, between the OS and browser? -- • OS: Apps have their own windows and menu bars. • Browser: Multiple a…

All of this is perfectly possible. End users don't seem to want to use these features for native apps for some reason, though, and developers seem to have all switched to the web instead of building native experiences.

It makes sense: native apps need to be developed for Windows, macOS, Android, iOS, and maybe Linux. Web apps need to be developed once. Android apps will work on Android, ChromeOS, Linux (after some setup), and Windows, but I doubt Apple is going to add an Android runtime to their platform any time soon.

App stores are on every major platform and custom URIs for sharing app state and views are implemented on phones already. Most people seem to run their desktop applications either full screen or nearly full screen. Pin the Windows task bar to the top of the screen and you've basically got yourself a tab bar. I don't know about macOS, but Android and Windows will start clearing caches and temporary files automatically under storage pressure. Sandboxing applications is available on all platforms as well.

I don't want every website to become a native application, though. I don't trust most websites enough to download native code from them. Let's not go back to the ActiveX/Java applet days where you needed to download some scary code for every website you wanted to visit.

I don't see why I would benefit from WebGPU support, I think I'll leave it disabled by default. It's probably one of those technologies that'll be useful for platforms with overbearing control (i.e. how game streaming on iOS is made possible). Maybe some small itch.io games will make use of it so I don't need to download Some Guy(TM)'s native executable every time I want to try a small experimental game.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#98

Post by jeroenhd »

lacasito25 wrote: post #91
Razengan wrote: post #64

Regarding all the arguments about ever-increasing browser complexity and the resulting inefficiency: Why is nobody asking the reverse question: How to make operating systems more like browsers?? From the end user's PoV (consider someone who isn't computer savvy) what are the actual objective differences in usability, between the OS and browser? -- • OS: Apps have their own windows and menu bars. • Browser: Multiple a…

one can hope that with web assembly we can get closer to that dream, and eventually just remove the whole web browser.

.jar files exist and so far they haven't replaced any browsers as far as I can tell.

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#99

Post by tourgen »

mpldr wrote: post #19

Question for discussion: when have we reached the point where the Browser Feature-creep is too much and we say "okay, a browser probably doesn't need this"? Because after seeing WebUSB and WebGPU I think my personal limit has been reached.

[dead]

Re: WebGPU Fundamentals

#100

Post by [deleted] »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #93
mpldr wrote: post #19

Question for discussion: when have we reached the point where the Browser Feature-creep is too much and we say "okay, a browser probably doesn't need this"? Because after seeing WebUSB and WebGPU I think my personal limit has been reached.

I think of the browser as another kind of OS, and as Microsoft keeps making their OS worse the browser is a nice reprieve. The more that goes into the browser the more I can ditch Microsoft and hopefully be rid of it all together. Though ironically maybe given that the browser can do so much is the reason that Microsoft has to focus on ‘value add’ crap instead of just a rock solid OS. Which sets up a self reinforcing…

[deleted]
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