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Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

theguardian.com

41–50 of 63 posts

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#41
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Ritual use” is a term of art in archaeology. It refers to any object whose survival/economic use is not readily apparent. Basically, anything that isn’t a basic tool (and many things that are tools if they’re decorated) are considered ritual objects. It doesn’t imply any religious purpose. Lots of what people do in life is composed of rituals. Morning coffee ritual, for example.

It is beyond ridiculous at this point, and serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore. Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.

OP said "morning coffee ritual", not the coffee maker.

Put yourself in the seat of someone coming to look at your house 1,000+ years after you died. Most things are gone but some things are intact. Our history and language was either wiped out or indiscernible. What would they find?

Well, in my house, here's a few things:

- they'd find that the softwood in my kitchen is much more worn than the rest of my house. We either spent a lot of time there or didn't care about it.

- they'd then find that there's bags of fragrant stuff by this steel machine with a pressurization cup that also has a steam wand.

- they'd find a water reservoir on the back of the machine.

- if I left in a hurry, they'd find cups scattered throughout the house, particularly in what looks like working areas.

- they'd find clean cups near the machine; some are plain but some are decorated!

Even from all this, they'd have to look at coffee beans to find out they're caffeinated, they'd need to determine the presence of sugar, spices, and the various types of milk humans use. The "morning coffee ritual" would still look pretty amalgamous, and lots of context as to what we did around it would be lost, but they'd get an idea around what it all was about.

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#42

We just returned from Cancun, where we toured the ruins of Tulum. The maya apparently had folded books, which out of thousands only 3 remain. To see them, you have to travel to Madrid, Paris or Dresden. Apparently the rest were burned by Spanish when they arrived in late 1580. Somehow I was overwhelmed with a huge sense of loss when I heard this. Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned.

> Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned

If it makes you feel any better, it’s likely a LOT less time that that. They didn’t develop their complex social culture until ~750BC & the earliest sculptural examples of Maya script are ~300BC.

It’s extremely unlikely any books the Spanish burned dated back until then but that’s the likely earliest they would have been.

Still a massive cultural crime & attempted genocide tho

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#43

We just returned from Cancun, where we toured the ruins of Tulum. The maya apparently had folded books, which out of thousands only 3 remain. To see them, you have to travel to Madrid, Paris or Dresden. Apparently the rest were burned by Spanish when they arrived in late 1580. Somehow I was overwhelmed with a huge sense of loss when I heard this. Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned.

> Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned If it makes you feel any better, it’s likely a LOT less time that that. They didn’t develop their complex social culture until ~750BC & the earliest sculptural examples of Maya script are ~300BC. It’s extremely unlikely any books the Spanish burned dated back until then but that’s the likely earliest they would have been. Still a massive cultural crime & attem…

Actual texts might only span ~1900 years, but if they are anything like European cultures their texts also contain written recordings of oral tradition. That would extend the time window, though with decreased accuracy.

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#44
post #16
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw some little youtube documentary about a group in mexico trying to resurrect the ball game. I have a feeling it would be tough to weigh where to keep things to 100% to what we know vs. filling in the blanks to make it more entertaining. Seems to have been going on during the olmec period too which would indicate at least around 3000 years of play... lots of different variations over that time. Tough to decide whic…

Tough to decide which one to pick. This is what makes me very sad, for those trying to recover their culture. For example, there are many Native Canadians trying to recover their culture and language, their history. And I wish them all success! But at the same time, I often see such discussions talking as if that culture was static. Unchangeable. "This is how we did it", from elders, which barely remember anything ot…

I agree but unfortunately those things are lost and such a revival is impossible. The best we can do is try to deeply understand what was lost and why they were lost and how to prevent similar loss in the future. Unfortunately we just repeat the same patterns because it's logically impossible for it to ever be a pressing problem for those with power and representation, so they're never motivated to solve it.

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#45
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is beyond ridiculous at this point, and serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore. Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.

Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? They very often do know what the object is used for. It just doesn't have any economic/survival significance. For example, children's toys are labelled ritual objects. This sort bulk classification via jargon exists elsewhere in science. For example, astronomers refer to all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium as metals. Should we ridicule a…

They can use whatever jargon they please among each other, but this talk about "ritual purposes" and "ritual objects" are constantly used in popular science when presenting archeological finds. Children's toys are not ritual objects.

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is beyond ridiculous at this point, and serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore. Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.

OP said "morning coffee ritual", not the coffee maker. Put yourself in the seat of someone coming to look at your house 1,000+ years after you died. Most things are gone but some things are intact. Our history and language was either wiped out or indiscernible. What would they find? Well, in my house, here's a few things: - they'd find that the softwood in my kitchen is much more worn than the rest of my house. We ei…

If the person discovering these things is a real scientist, he will say he doesn't know what it was for. If he is not, he will say it was for ritual purposes and that the stupid 21st century people believed a spirit lived inside the machine.

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? They very often do know what the object is used for. It just doesn't have any economic/survival significance. For example, children's toys are labelled ritual objects. This sort bulk classification via jargon exists elsewhere in science. For example, astronomers refer to all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium as metals. Should we ridicule a…

They can use whatever jargon they please among each other, but this talk about "ritual purposes" and "ritual objects" are constantly used in popular science when presenting archeological finds. Children's toys are not ritual objects.

So your complaint is with popular science media not translating these terms of art into everyday language. Fair enough. But how does that warrant the claim that the use of these terms "serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore"?

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#48
post #36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Yucatán Peninsula has limestone shelves, as the entire area was a sea floor in primordial times. Holes in these shelves that provide access to an enormous aquifer are called cenote. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote

Bathing inside a cenote is an out of this world experience

So is scuba diving them! Down you go into a going black hole, swimming through amazing caves (don’t let go of the rope!), the out the other side in a different cenote. Surreal experience

Re: Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is beyond ridiculous at this point, and serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore. Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for? And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.

I think you could make a very, very compelling case that the process of making coffee is, for many people (especially those really into it), an important ritual which has a lot of significance beyond the specific output. Look at the discourse around the James Hoffman AeroPress saga and tell me that shit isn't insanely ritualized. Nothing religious or spiritual (usually), but you get a lot of time/structure/cycle/morn…

By your reasoning, would it be possible for a person to make herself a cup of coffee and drink it without you considering it to be ritually?
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