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Surviving Burnout (2015)

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Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#61

Post by koonsolo »

danparsonson wrote: post #17
solatic wrote: post #11

> Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. It's not the author's conclusion, but this is basically my fantasy ever since watching Billions with Wendy Rhoades's character. In that show, Wendy is a performance coach working for a hedge fund whose job is to emotionally pump up the people who work for the hedge fund. The hedge fund employs her because (leaving aside the soa…

> More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees That honestly sounds dreadful to me, exactly the kind of management-driven nonsense that would make me more likely to quit. If you want your employees pumped up about work, focus on treating them well not hiring cheerleaders.

100%!

"Our development process sucks, we need X to fix Y!", "Sorry, no can do. But don't worry, I'll plan a session with our company cheerleader"

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#62

Post by XorNot »

danparsonson wrote: post #17
solatic wrote: post #11

> Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. It's not the author's conclusion, but this is basically my fantasy ever since watching Billions with Wendy Rhoades's character. In that show, Wendy is a performance coach working for a hedge fund whose job is to emotionally pump up the people who work for the hedge fund. The hedge fund employs her because (leaving aside the soa…

> More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees That honestly sounds dreadful to me, exactly the kind of management-driven nonsense that would make me more likely to quit. If you want your employees pumped up about work, focus on treating them well not hiring cheerleaders.

This is how I feel about my current scrum master.

Ever morning we look at the burn down chart. Every morning he tries to tell people to "just see if we can close a ticket because it would be good for the chart".

I've submitted feedback pointing out how negatively useful this little ritual is (because if the task was actually done we'd close the ticket, it's not not being closed just because).

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#63

Post by dasil003 »

jimnotgym wrote: post #41
slushh wrote: post #19

Why isn't there a known company with a healthy structure that is the place of recovery for burned out developers? 'we can build it together' - why is that not happening? >Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. >How can any of us get better if we can’t afford to extract ourselves from the environment that caused the harm? >When you’re finally in recovery, you’ll start…

This might be really unpopular for hn... Maybe it is because being a good manager is hard. Maybe running an effective organisation is hard. Maybe being in your 20s and having a bunch of VC money doesn't translate to being able to do the above? Being a good manager takes time and a willingness to be emotionally aware. It also requires mentoring. On the other hand, if a bunch of burnt out engineers with capital want to…

I think this comment is spot on. Another thing I’ll add: building something successful enough to be sustainable is incredibly difficult, especially when market value for SWEs is established by a few winner-take-all disruptions that panned out in the internet and smart phone transitions of the past two decades.

The saccharine platitudes and subtle gaslighting of the corporate world is really just a thin veneer designed to allow employees to get some work done without having to think too deeply about the brutality of globalized capitalism.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#64

Post by pvsukale3 »

I am in my mid 20s. I have been burned out in the past. One thing I want to reiterate on is you should be able to afford a sabbatical when it is desperately needed. A few months at least without all of your finances going down.

If this is not the case with you, it is best in interest to take out some money and put towards that. That sabbatical gives you some breathing space for you in life. It is worth saving some money and avoiding some luxury expenses.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#65

Post by dasil003 »

bruce511 wrote: post #18
brailsafe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well-articulated. I finally felt like I was bouncing back when I just accepted not giving a fuck and doing the absolute minimum to fulfill whatever the goals seem to be of whoever's deciding on them. Do they care about rendering performance? No? Well then I'm sure as hell not goimg to lose sleep over it, and if it seems actively harmful to customers *that I've met* then it's just a place to leave. There's always…

As you move up the business ladder, or indeed start your own business, it's interesting to see how priorities evolve. When you're a coder, the code matters. It can be frustrating to see resources allocated to say marketing. When you are responsible for acquiring resources, then there's more to care about, more to balance. When to market. When to get new hardware. Programmers care about code performance, code elegance…

Very true. The thing that really helped me as I got into the third decade of my career was the realization that things can always be improved, but only if agency and accountability go hand-in-hand, and are widely distributed so that everyone has some ability to influence and optimize something. Obviously this requires a willingness to compromise from all involved, and can easily go off the rails into the worst sort of design-by-committee debacles if the wrong people are given the wrong authority, but when it’s done right that’s the definition of a team gelling. It’s rare in a corporate environment due to sheer volume of individuals involved and the communication/alignment overhead, but still possible, and always feels a bit magical when it happens.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#66

Post by pts_ »

bruce511 wrote: post #18
brailsafe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well-articulated. I finally felt like I was bouncing back when I just accepted not giving a fuck and doing the absolute minimum to fulfill whatever the goals seem to be of whoever's deciding on them. Do they care about rendering performance? No? Well then I'm sure as hell not goimg to lose sleep over it, and if it seems actively harmful to customers *that I've met* then it's just a place to leave. There's always…

As you move up the business ladder, or indeed start your own business, it's interesting to see how priorities evolve. When you're a coder, the code matters. It can be frustrating to see resources allocated to say marketing. When you are responsible for acquiring resources, then there's more to care about, more to balance. When to market. When to get new hardware. Programmers care about code performance, code elegance…

It's not about age, it's where your interests lie in.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#67

Post by slushh »

ornornor wrote: post #38
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most burnout-inducing environments I’ve worked in have all had one thing in common: They had a person or class of people that had wormed their way into being in control of everything while being responsible for very little. This left the rest of us to be responsible for the consequences of their decisions while having little to no input on the things we were held accountable for. The absolute worst company I work…

This is pretty much everywhere I’ve worked at in my 10 years career so far. I honestly don’t know what to do about it. It seems hopeless and I’ve been avoiding going back to work for the last 18 months. I also wonder if there is something wrong with me because everyone else seems to cope with it somehow and keep on working. I’ve thought about starting my own business but it’s too much hard work which I don’t think I…

>I’ve thought about starting my own business but it’s too much hard work

Don't do it alone. Have a look at @jimnotgym's comment.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#68

Post by MrDresden »

I have recently progressed out of a burnout state, which started just before covid hit and continued until early this year.

I was lucky enough to be able to take all of last year off from work to focus on my mental and physical health.

It is probably dependant on people (and ofcourse their situation), but when I see someone talking about overcoming burnout by taking a month off I can't help wonder if they are diluting themselves into believing that everything is now fine, or if it was truly burnout to begin with.

If possible, make sure you give yourself enough time to deal with burnout. There is no shame in needing to take extended time away. Your health is more important than a career.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#69

Post by dxdm »

ornornor wrote: post #38
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most burnout-inducing environments I’ve worked in have all had one thing in common: They had a person or class of people that had wormed their way into being in control of everything while being responsible for very little. This left the rest of us to be responsible for the consequences of their decisions while having little to no input on the things we were held accountable for. The absolute worst company I work…

This is pretty much everywhere I’ve worked at in my 10 years career so far. I honestly don’t know what to do about it. It seems hopeless and I’ve been avoiding going back to work for the last 18 months. I also wonder if there is something wrong with me because everyone else seems to cope with it somehow and keep on working. I’ve thought about starting my own business but it’s too much hard work which I don’t think I…

> I also wonder if there is something wrong with me

There is not, and it's important to understand that. The environment is grinding you down, which can make you doubt yourself. In essence, your mind gets tricked into taking the blame for the situation you're finding yourself in.

In the end, while you might not always be able to modify the environment, you can always move away from it. You're avoiding it - you can see that as a part of you looking out for you. It's an important part, and it shows you that you actually have agency: You can do something, and you _are_ doing something. It also means you could do something else. You can take more control and use your agency in a more directed way. See what actions you can take that make you feel better and more in control.

Resist the urge to blame yourself, but don't blame yourself for blaming yourself: see it like a natural reflex that is there, but that you want get more control over. That itch you don't want to scratch, in order to not damage your skin; when you find yourself scratching, forgive yourself for scratching it, and stop scratching.

Most of all, I'm not a professional. Find a professional to talk this over with. They can help immensely putting the your situation in context and figure out ways to interact with it that make you feel good. It works.

Re: Surviving Burnout (2015)

#70

Post by ElFitz »

bruce511 wrote: post #8

>> caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes This really dies sum it up in a useful generic way. Ultimately the balance of this sentence will differ from context to context, but the equation ultimately has to balance. Put another way, if you care a lot, but have no agency, then ultimately you will be frustrated. If you care a lot, but have no resources, then again, y…

> Burnout is just the moment whe you stop fruitlessly caring.

To me it was the moment I started breaking down in tears when getting to the subway station down my street, on my way to work. Every day.

The next time was when I could not speak about my job and the project I was working on without stammering and my mind going blank (and still couldn’t for months after quitting).

“Frustrated" and "stop to fruitlessly care" don’t feel like they even begin to describe that.

> But you -want- to care (about something) so not-caring leads to depression.

Having also gone through a decade-long depression before that, I’d personally say these two are very different beasts. Both are quite unpleasant, and neither is viable, but each in it’s own way.

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