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Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#51
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately this question is the question of why the universe isn't completely isotropic in all directions with a completely uniform distribution of matter and energy. To the best of our knowledge this is due to quantum effects at the beginning of time creating a temporary asymmetry whose resulting "sloshing" created everything more complicated than evenly-distributed hydrogen gas. Life on earth is the tiniest swirl o…

That is rather hand wavy and doesn't explain where the complexity in DNA comes from, you just swept that problem under the rug with a blanket explanation that lacks explanatory power.

DNA is actually rather simple. It basically consists of about the fewest number of bases possible for encoding information (four), even though more bases are possible (and have been stably engineered into organisms). Even so, while these bases pair off well, there is some cross-talk possible (G-quadruplexes, G:T base-pairing).

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand we aren't a closed system. But that still doesn't explain to me where the complexity came from.

> I understand we aren't a closed system. Just because you can parrot the phrase doesn't mean you understand it. Your statement " everything in the universe degrades or rusts or tends towards decreasing complexity", which simply isn't true for a local subsystem such as the earth, demonstrating that you do not understand what it means for Earth to not be a closed system. > But that still doesn't explain to me where th…

That lacks explanatory power. It is a hand wavy process. "Random movements caused by the sun". By what method of action? Tell me exactly. You can't because you don't know. You are just too arrogant to admit it.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a bad argument. You probably know very well that if a cryptographer can force you to employ infinite monkeys on typewriters to guess their key, they'll declare victory. You need a mechanism that searches and focuses the space of possible chemistry, that forces life into being. If you look at the timeline for the emergence of life, I don't think it's one that supports an infinite monkey type of mechanism.…

As posted in earlier articles and from what I have read: The basic buildings block of our life spontaneously form from the chemistry of the early Earth (our even the chemistry of space). Lipid membranes spontaneously form enclosed structures. This forces molecules together allowing fast and directional catalysis. RNA is directly catalytically active on itself and other molecules. That's just what I can recall. There'…

Lipid membranes are pretty cool, but they're not life. Nucleobases and amino acids are letters, not sentences.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a bad argument. You probably know very well that if a cryptographer can force you to employ infinite monkeys on typewriters to guess their key, they'll declare victory. You need a mechanism that searches and focuses the space of possible chemistry, that forces life into being. If you look at the timeline for the emergence of life, I don't think it's one that supports an infinite monkey type of mechanism.…

> You need a mechanism that searches and focuses the space of possible chemistry, that forces life into being. That's exactly what the infinite monkeys on a typewriter are a metaphor for. In literal terms, it's trillions of trillions of protein reactions happening along earth's coastlines. > If you look at the timeline for the emergence of life, I don't think it's one that supports an infinite monkey type of mechanis…

My read of the timeline is that life emerged very soon after it was physically possible for it to exist. I'm interested in research wondering why it wasn't even faster. What should I search for?

My point is, "infinite monkeys" (as a metaphor, taking them literally is a strawman) describes a brute-force approach. I don't think a physical process that randomly smashes together, say, long RNA molecules will actually result in life, certainly not quickly, probably not at all. The combinatorics of long strings are prohibitive. I think some selection process needed to take over sooner.

I don't know if that's the argument you think I "wanted to make". As far as I'm concerned I've said exactly what I mean, just longer and more explicit for a hostile audience this time.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#55
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would encourage you to find a copy of (it's very expensive, but there are methods to acquire it, such as "libraries") Eugene Koonin's "The Logic of Chance", if this is a topic you're interested in. It basically goes through evolution from a molecular biology and information theory standpoint (and culminates in his own theory of "genesis").

It seems to be available for download for free? 1st or second hit on google: http://www.evolocus.com/Textbooks/Koonin2011.pdf

Awesome! It wasn't the last time I checked.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be available for download for free? 1st or second hit on google: http://www.evolocus.com/Textbooks/Koonin2011.pdf

Awesome! It wasn't the last time I checked.

I remember exploring a "traditional html with images" website about natural selection (I don't think it was interactive, but I do think the source code for each experiment was provided). I assume it was made by a mathematician / physicist. Do you by chance happen to know which site I have in mind? I (vaguely) recall a blueish gray background.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand we aren't a closed system. Just because you can parrot the phrase doesn't mean you understand it. Your statement " everything in the universe degrades or rusts or tends towards decreasing complexity", which simply isn't true for a local subsystem such as the earth, demonstrating that you do not understand what it means for Earth to not be a closed system. > But that still doesn't explain to me where th…

That lacks explanatory power. It is a hand wavy process. "Random movements caused by the sun". By what method of action? Tell me exactly. You can't because you don't know. You are just too arrogant to admit it.

1. It's strange that you've put quotes around something I didn't say.

2. I said a lot more than what you put quotes around, which explains the method of action. If you want more specific information, you'll have to engage enough with what I've already said to ask a more specific question. I won't waste my time explaining parts I've already explained and you've ignored.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a mechanism that searches and focuses the space of possible chemistry, that forces life into being. That's exactly what the infinite monkeys on a typewriter are a metaphor for. In literal terms, it's trillions of trillions of protein reactions happening along earth's coastlines. > If you look at the timeline for the emergence of life, I don't think it's one that supports an infinite monkey type of mechanis…

My read of the timeline is that life emerged very soon after it was physically possible for it to exist. I'm interested in research wondering why it wasn't even faster. What should I search for? My point is, "infinite monkeys" (as a metaphor, taking them literally is a strawman) describes a brute-force approach. I don't think a physical process that randomly smashes together, say, long RNA molecules will actually res…

> My read of the timeline is that life emerged very soon after it was physically possible for it to exist. I'm interested in research wondering why it wasn't even faster. What should I search for?

It's been a while since I researched this, and now I'm trying to search with similar terms to what I used before and it's not working. The reason seems to be that there's a ton of fluff papers about life on Mars and other planets: this sort of speculative modeling isn't without value, but it's lacking much hard evidence, unlike the papers I was reading a decade ago which had a ton of geological information. It's frustrating. I wish I could point you at something good here, if only so I could find stuff for myself again.

> My point is, "infinite monkeys" (as a metaphor, taking them literally is a strawman) describes a brute-force approach. I don't think a physical process that randomly smashes together, say, long RNA molecules will actually result in life, certainly not quickly, probably not at all. The combinatorics of long strings are prohibitive. I think some selection process needed to take over sooner.

Well, two things:

Proteins aren't like cryptographic keys, and I'd encourage you to abandon that way of thinking about them. Finding a single cryptographic key is like finding a needle in a haystack: there's only one key that works. But with proteins there are a lot of combinations that work, and even "work" is a bit hard to define because there are a lot of proteins that aren't RNA or DNA, but exhibit lifelike properties. Some of these proteins are very combinatorially simple compared to DNA. So far I don't know of any research that connects a specific prion with a theorized route toward more complex structures (these seem to have evolved in the context of larger organisms) but it at least shows us that very simple proteins can exhibit lifelike properties. Put another way, partial answers count. So instead of a needle in a haystack, it's a haystack with a bunch of needles, and bits of metal that aren't really needles but count as needles.

2. And keep in mind it's not just the problem space that's large: the amount of "processes" doing the searching is also large.

My point is, I don't think it's evident that the combinatorics of long strings are prohibitive, given that there are many "right" answers in the search space, and some partial answers count.

To actually put numbers on this to say how long it would take would require information I simply don't have, but I'm skeptical that you have that information either.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My read of the timeline is that life emerged very soon after it was physically possible for it to exist. I'm interested in research wondering why it wasn't even faster. What should I search for? My point is, "infinite monkeys" (as a metaphor, taking them literally is a strawman) describes a brute-force approach. I don't think a physical process that randomly smashes together, say, long RNA molecules will actually res…

> My read of the timeline is that life emerged very soon after it was physically possible for it to exist. I'm interested in research wondering why it wasn't even faster. What should I search for? It's been a while since I researched this, and now I'm trying to search with similar terms to what I used before and it's not working. The reason seems to be that there's a ton of fluff papers about life on Mars and other p…

I don't think of proteins as cryptographic keys. But monkeys-on-typewriters thinking is more closely aligned with cryptography than biochemistry. That's kind of my point.

Re: Primitive Asgard cells show life on the brink of complexity

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That lacks explanatory power. It is a hand wavy process. "Random movements caused by the sun". By what method of action? Tell me exactly. You can't because you don't know. You are just too arrogant to admit it.

1. It's strange that you've put quotes around something I didn't say. 2. I said a lot more than what you put quotes around, which explains the method of action. If you want more specific information, you'll have to engage enough with what I've already said to ask a more specific question. I won't waste my time explaining parts I've already explained and you've ignored.

You talk about the physical process, but not where the information came from. Information only comes from consciousness.

If you think randomness created dna with a specific function I have a bridge to sell you

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