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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

161–170 of 182 posts

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#161
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the gender pay gap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap Or did you mean something else?

Specifically how the gender pay gap applies to individuals who transitioned, especially controlled on an individual basis and not just in aggregate. See the pre/post changes would be especially interesting.

13 year old me just assumed.

Adult me heard anecdotes.

I can google for things like this: https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-wage-gap-among-lgbtq-worke...

But that's not quite the same thing as I just claimed, as although it shows trans men and trans women separately and strongly implies trans women get a pay cut, unless I missed something it doesn't also show cis men and cis women so I can't say if it says trans men get a pay rise.

(Also: wrong country, as I was born in the UK and now live in Germany, not the USA).

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#162
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically how the gender pay gap applies to individuals who transitioned, especially controlled on an individual basis and not just in aggregate. See the pre/post changes would be especially interesting.

13 year old me just assumed. Adult me heard anecdotes. I can google for things like this: https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-wage-gap-among-lgbtq-worke... But that's not quite the same thing as I just claimed, as although it shows trans men and trans women separately and strongly implies trans women get a pay cut, unless I missed something it doesn't also show cis men and cis women so I can't say if it says trans men…

It very much depends. The gender pay gap is largely due to men being disproportionately in power, so places where men gather tend to have professional benefits for the men in there. As such, it depends culturally on how welcome trans men are in specifically male spaces.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#163

An article about sex selection which has to stop and explain multiple times that biological sex exists and is different than gender just might be written for the wrong audience.

If you don't have those asterisks all over the place Twitter will come for you... and that is apparently something worth worrying about.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#164
post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

It's typically used as a euphemism for a desire to be the opposite sex in some way or another. For example, if a male wants to be female, or even just sees himself as somewhat feminine (i.e. having some interests or behaviours that he perceives as being more commonly associated with women), he may announce that he has a 'female gender identity'.

The benefit of framing this as an identity (and one most often described as innate and unchanging) rather than a desire, is that it has a 'who I am' connotation instead of 'who I want to be'. Which has been useful in a broader cultural context in gaining acceptance for this desire, especially in the political arena; compare e.g. 'trans women are women' versus 'transwomen are men who desire to be women'.

Another useful property of gender identity is that it is unverifiable and unfalsifiable, much like the concept of having a soul. Therefore anyone can claim to have any gender identity, and there's not really any challenge that can be made to such claims other than accusations of deception or delusion, neither of which are considered socially acceptable, in most contexts. This also shifts the rhetorical ground from the material (biological reality of sex, sexual mimicry via hormonal and surgical interventions) to the metaphysical. So this also helps shield this desire to be the opposite sex from criticism.

Also, as it's usually defined as something like 'an innate sense of one's gender', there's a useful definitional confusion in that. Most people will just use their self-knowledge of being female or male to answer the question of gender identity, even though this is a different type of concept to desiring to be the opposite sex. So in this way, gender identity can be presented as being something everyone has, despite it referring to distinct phenomena.

In short, it's the centrepiece of a rather impressive rhetorical strategy to normalise and institutionalise the desire to be the opposite sex.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your homosexuality, which is biologically rooted, is associated with behavior changes, doesn’t that support the conclusion that gendered behavior is rooted in biology rather than socially constructed?

Only if you're dumb enough to assume that all or most of behavior is biologically determined, instead of being a complex mix of biology, culture, and learned individual patterns that produces a spectrum of individual expression. The question isn't "is gendered behavior rooted in biology?" it's "how much / to what degree?" and the honest answer is, we don't really know with confidence, especially when it comes to huma…

The assertion in the article is that gender is socially constructed. You don’t seem to be defending that point. You’re making a different argument nobody disagrees with—that humans also express learned cultural and individual behaviors. You could walk into CPAC and say that women would still be women if the social convention was for them to wear pants. Nobody would disagree with you.

Ironically, the social changes in gender expression you’re referring to are actually premised on the opposite of the assertion you’re making. They posit that gender expression is biologically rooted—because otherwise it would be within the purview of society to regulate it as a matter or culture or individual expression.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#167
post #160
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in the following three sentences from the one you quoted. It's not an argument about scale. "Dogs Playing Poker" is not based on anything real.

Sorry I'm still lost.

I am saying there are many, many behaviors which human beings have which the rest of the animal kingdom does not exhibit.

I am positing that, in fact, most of how we spend our time as human beings (such as arguing on YC news threads) is behavior which does not exist in the rest of the animal kingdom.

That is not an argument about scale as you say, it is an argument about the type of behavior.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back when I was taught Biology in school, “female“ meant “having the larger gamete”.

Strange, I was taught that sex that determines whether a sexually reproducing organism produces male or female gametes. You're describing anisogamy. Large males are sexually selected for in elephant seals because they can fight off other males, but small males are sexually selected for in spiders for they can mate with the female quickly while avoiding being eaten.

They said larger gamete, not larger adult size.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like there are cases where the size of the gametes are identical. But when this happens they don’t refer the organism’s sex as “male/female” and instead use “+/-“. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isogamy Going a step further I found this: >Depending on the group, different mating types are often referred to by numbers, letters, or simply "+" and "−" instead of "male" and "female", which refer to "sexes" or d…

Here's a fun edge case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indotyphlops_braminus#Reproduc... All individuals of this snake are female (presumably 'female' here is defined relative to other snakes) and reproduce parthenogenetically (sic?). By your definition, these wouldn't have a sex at all, presumably.

A closely-related species using the same or similar chromosomes, where male/female exist, is likely where it came to be that the observed individuals of these snakes have all been determined "female", even if no "male" has been observed.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exception is not the rule.

Abstractions are useful, this is true, but the exceptions are a reminder that they are not reality, they are just a categorization we overlay on top of reality to help us understand it. Their utility is contextual. Your abstraction ignores all the sterile men and women too, by the way. That's because it is a particularly bad one.

The fact of the matter is that if someone is missing a leg they are absolutely human but they are broken nonetheless.
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