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Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

mathalicious.com

141–150 of 192 posts

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#141
The blog post author is a provider of educational software sold to schools, writing to identify problems that he thinks arise from the Khan Academy approach to online education. I'll respond to what he said now that I've read the blog and the earlier thoughtful comments on his blog and here on HN.

1. It is hard to compete against free, especially in education.

Adam Smith pointed this out a long time ago: "In modern times [as contrasted with ancient times] the diligence of public teachers is more or less corrupted by the circumstances which render them more or less independent of their success and reputation in their particular professions. Their salaries, too, put the private teacher, who would pretend to come into competition with them, in the same state with a merchant who attempts to trade without a bounty in competition with those who trade with a considerable one. . . . The privileges of graduation, besides, are in many countries . . . obtained only by attending the lectures of the public teachers. . . . The endowment of schools and colleges have, in this manner, not only corrupted the diligence of public teachers, but have rendered it almost impossible to have any good private ones." -- The Wealth of Nations, Book V, Part 3, Article II (1776).

Thus the only way to compete effectualy against the current system is to offer something free-to-the-user as part of the mix. The current system of public schools in the United States gains revenues of more than $500 billion dollars per budget year for government-operated elementary and secondary schools.

http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/09f33pub.pdf

The blog author seeks to sell products for money to schools, and decries Khan Academy being provided directly to learners for free. Many other providers of educational products and services are doing what is REALLY hard: providing products and services to primary-age and secondary-age learners directly, on at least a cost-recovery basis, attempting to show a value proposition for products and services that families have to pay for after already paying their taxes.

Moreover, the monopoly or oligopoly the government-operated schools have on offering certain kinds of educational credentials ensures that Khan Academy and all competing providers of educational services have to rely on more than just price to win over users.

2. It takes guts to be an entrepreneur.

For anyone attempting to sell a product or service, the first challenge is competing against everyone else providing a product or service (including consumers who do it themselves). One of the entrepreneurs I most admire in the educational products space is a homeschooling materials supplier that has for more than a decade hosted a webpage called "27 Reasons NOT to Buy [Our Product]."

http://www.sonlight.com/not-to-buy.html

That takes courage and honesty. Rather than FUD, a stand-up entrepreneur lets prospective clients know what the competition offers. Clients are happier if they can shop and compare what's on offer from competing providers.

3. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Khan Academy is provided over the Internet, entirely for free, but not everyone who has an Internet connection makes use of it. (Some readers who have commented here have suggested that the blog author should watch more Khan Academy videos before making a global evaluation of the quality of Khan Academy instruction.)

The public school system is free (that is, tax-subsidized) for all pupils, and the pupils are compelled to attend in default of government-approved, parent-funded alternatives besides. Even at that, teachers can't count on pupils being engaged in their lessons. It's not clear that providing this or that new lesson material will bring about more learning in a compulsory attendance environment, as another reader here pointed out while mentioning the interesting writings of the late John Holt.

4. Khan Academy leaves a lot of room for a better service.

I have watched SOME Khan Academy videos, including some of the most recently revised videos. My children have watched others. We have also done various Khan Academy online exercises. My homeschooled children's main online mathematics course is NOT Khan Academy, but ALEKS,

http://www.aleks.com/

which to date offers much superior exercises (which are more like open-ended problems than mere exercises), much more relentless focus on steady skill development of learners, and a more complete and articulated curriculum for precalculus mathematics. I have urged the Khan Academy collaborators in past replies here on HN basically to reinvent the research ALEKS has done on knowledge spaces in K-12 mathematics

http://www.aleks.com/about_aleks/Science_Behind_ALEKS.pdf

and eventually to build a comparable framework to integrate all the Khan Academy exercises into a coherent curriculum.

Anyone can try out ALEKS for an unlimited number of free, time-limited trials. (I'm not paid to endorse ALEKS; I learned this from a local friend who telephoned the company and asked about this.) So you and the blog author and any member of the Khan Academy staff and any other person with an Internet connection can try out ALEKS and see what is like. What ALEKS conspicuously lacks compared to Khan Academy is audio explanations, and what differs from Khan Academy most conspicuously about ALEKS is that ALEKS costs money, but I'm happy to spend money on ALEKS for four learners in my family.

An even better source of videos on prealgebra topics than the Khan Academy videos are the Art of Problem Solving videos by Richard Rusczyk,

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=pre...

also free and worthwhile for mathematical accuracy and engaging presentation, with very challenging problems. Art of Problem Solving links to other videos, some produced in-house and some from other providers,

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?&

that are also very good.

Competition is good. I like the public school system, the lessons I teach locally as supplemental classes for advanced elementary-age learners, and Khan Academy and Art of Problem Solving and ALEKS all to be subject to competition, the better to have incentive to improve and to do better.

5. There will continue to be an important role for in-person teachers.

Khan Academy will not make in-person teachers become obsolete. I tell all my prospective clients for my own local in-person math classes about Khan Academy before the first day of each new term. A good classroom teacher, who knows the latest research on educational effectiveness,

http://www.amazon.com/Visible-Learning-Synthesis-Meta-Analys...

will take care to form a community of shared curiosity and reality checks on one another's thinking while teaching. There is an abundance of research on effective mathematics teaching,

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/Lisbon2010_4.pdf

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/Lisbon2010_2.pdf

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/NCTM2010.pdf

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/NoticesAMS2011.pdf

http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/CommonCoreIV.pdf

http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/fall1999/amed1.pdf

http://www.math.wisc.edu/~askey/ask-gian.pdf

http://www.ams.org/notices/199908/rev-howe.pdf

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

ftp://math.stanford.edu/pub/papers/milgram/milgram-msri.pdf

ftp://math.stanford.edu/pub/papers/milgram/report-on-cmp.html

and much of that research has yet to be implemented in most classrooms in the United States. It's even possible to compete with wholly free services and provide supplemental classes in mathematics that families pay for willingly and without compulsion. The key thing for a teacher to do is build a class that is engaging and that welcomes curious learners who are willing to challenge themselves.

See an earlier HN comment

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2760663

for a bit more on the distinction between problems and exercises.

I wish the blog author, the Khan Academy developers, and everyone teaching mathematics well in spurring the development of better materials and teaching practices so that more mathematics learners learn more mathematics better.

http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#142
It's another argument for constructivism, pointing out that Khan Academy is non-constructivist education on steroids.

As much as I agree with this argument, it underplays the fact that constructivism is a paradigm shift that will require gobs cultural readiness and energy that we don't seem to have. It's like, Why don't we live in domes? Well, because people expect houses to be rectangular, zoning laws assume they'll be made of sticks, and we don't have enough energy to blow past these things. Or, Why do we still use imperative programming languages instead of functional languages?

Once it was different: the constructivist program by Seymour Papert to put Logo (which, as it happens, is a functional language!) in schools. It was a fad in the early '80s and failed monumentally. So monumentally that today the power of computing is equated with making textbooks interactive http://www.apple.com/ibooks-author/ and backpacks lighter. Both Jobs and Gates criticized various 'computer in the classroom' initiatives in the '90s for this very reason, but they didn't mention (or didn't know about) Logo.

One constructivist aspect of Khan's program not mentioned in the article is the "flipped" classroom -- watching lectures at home and doing homework in class. This is a far superior use of classroom time that allows questions to come in the context of work, work to be a social activity, etc. And last I heard, K.A. were having real trouble selling the idea. It's too revolutionary for many schools.

What's often not understood is that schools are incredibly diverse institutions. The parents, the students, the teachers, the unions, the administration, the local, State, and federal governments... all sit in class each day. There is no way to improve classrooms by decree, or even by offering powerful alternatives like Khan Academy or Logo. The entire society must come along.

The article criticizes Khan Academy for not employing teachers. But failed to mention another constructivist act par excellence: they just hired Vi Hart! http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=e1a6Bxc0OYQ

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#143

The author dismisses Sal's videos as "ineffective instruction": "This paint-by-numbers method of instruction emphasizes procedures — how to do math — but ignores the conceptual understanding that’s central to authentic learning: what math means." This comment by the author is enraging. It is great to be able to understand things abstractly and use conceptual understanding to apply knowledge, but this rarely comes fir…

You'll notice that I didn't actually say that Khan was the "most dangerous phenomenon," but rather our own obsession with it, and the misinterpretation of what it can do. Khan itself is great, but using it for what it wasn't intended to do is a real problem...and one that schools & districts are beginning to pursue more and more.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#144
Khan Academy is like Google Analytics. A great, free service. use it if you want to, don't if you don't. No one's ever forced you to. To the author: If you've got something better, bring it on. Don't try to pull others down.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#145

I wish I knew more about the person writing it, its hard to contextualize their opinions as it stands currently.

Happy to tell you more. My name is Karim. I'm the founder of Mathalicious and the author of the blog post. I'm also a former classroom teacher and middle school math coach, where I worked with other teachers to help improve instruction by focusing on 1) conceptual understanding, and 2) relevance. It seems like the anti-post comments fall in three categories: 1. Khan is great 2. Mathalicious is just jealous 3. The aut…

"Khan Academy is not great pedagogically" Sal's greatest ability is his empathy. His identification with the kids and elders alike. People turn to Khan Academy after they fail to understand their monotonic Math professors. And they aren't disappointed, at least not me.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#146
post #86
post #13

To address our challenges, we need to do what every other successful country has done: invest in professional development; give teachers more time to collaborate; and provide them with resources that help them not only meet the learning standards, but exceed them. You could have copy/pasted that conclusion without altering a word from the debate about every other educational reform: school choice/vouchers, NCLB, high…

This is an incredibly depressing post. The discussion over educational reform has devolved into one side begging for teachers to stop being treated like cattle and the other saying, essentially, "if you cared about the kids, you'd be happy being treated like cattle." Doctors go through significantly more schooling and receive significantly more professional development — yet they are still perceived with respect as p…

Doctors go through significantly more schooling and receive significantly more professional development — yet they are still perceived with respect as professionals who care about their patients. Why can't we do the same for teachers?

Because peoplegenerally have much less exposure to doctors and when they are they're desperate for either treatment or hope. Both of these contribute.

Also, medical training is much harder than education. There are teachers at every average large high school who could have been doctors but they're a minority.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#147
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the goal is to employ teachers and education of students is a welcome-but-unnecessary industrial byproduct" For an example of this -- look at the amount of times the Student-to-Teacher ratio is brought up. Which is such an interesting statistic because it implies that time with a terrible teacher is preferable to having the good teachers handle a few more students.

No. It implies that in general having fewer students makes it easier to be a good teacher. And that being in a smaller class makes it easier to be a successful student. The importance of class size is well-supported by systematic reviews and meta-analyses.

The importance of class size is well-supported by systematic reviews and meta-analyses.

[Citation needed]

IIRC in disciplined classes between the sizes of 6ish and 40ish the results are very similar.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#148
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to quibble, but you should really replace Henry Ford with Karl Benz. By the time Henry Ford got into the act, cars had already proven their usefulness. Ford's innovation was making cars cheap enough for the average person to afford.

Ford also wouldn't be happy about truly progressive, disruptive innovations like the rise of a strong labor movement.

But he also paid High wages.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#149

What's the difference between KA's videos and something written? If I don't know something, can't I just look it up on wikipedia or some other website? Or, a book? Here's what I'm getting at: NOTHING about KA is revolutionary. Nada. You can read a book as quickly or as slowly as you like. If you don't understand something, you go back. "Ah, but these are videos. It's an actual human speaking." Well, yeah, the recordi…

Khan also has tutoring section built in for interaction. You can also do active exercises rather than just watch videos.

Re: Khan Academy: It’s Different This Time

#150
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You should believe me because I say so"? Really? I'm not saying you are or are not, but this line of justification is an insult to anyone who considers themselves rational thinkers.

Not really. I would have though that: 'do it a lot and you'll get better at it' is fairly self evident. Obviously testing of some sort would help us to determine how much better one became. I'd go so far as to say that it would be very difficult not to improve at something you were doing over a period of time.

I think the point they're trying to make (through this admittedly condescending questioning) is that when the institution is fundamentally wrong, elongated experience can only pervert rather than further skills. Or f it does further, it is only furthering a perversion of some concept of what's right. I think there's a degree of truth to that but but it's oversimplifying a bit.
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