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A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

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Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#51
post #30

misses out on the single biggest threat to BTC Western governments simply outlaw its use and ownership without the USD, there really isn't even a USA, Western governments live and die by their fiat currencies outlawing it would not be that hard, confiscate all Coinbase assets would be an easy first step

The single biggest threat to BTC isn't that. It is tokenized BTC. As soon as enough people realize that there is a lot more utility to bitcoin, as a tokenized version, on other networks, they might stop using bitcoin itself. I did that years ago.

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#52

The consequences of a 51% attack are greatly overstated. A 51% attacker can prevent new transactions from confirming, and roll back recent transactions. They can't roll back transactions that happened (roughly) longer ago than the sustained duration of the attack. They can't mint extra coins, or double-spend arbitrarily old transactions. Under 51% conditions, you need to be more careful about accepting recently-confi…

Just the possibility of 51% attacks (if they occur 'occasionally') means people have to wait longer til they can consider transactions settled.

Do they need to wait 4 hours instead of 1? 1 day? 3 days? 2 weeks?

Whatever it is, it's materially significant. What does bitcoin do well now? What does it do better than other networks?

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#53

Aside from Satoshi's hoard.. there's also just regular destruction. Units can be mined and then permanently lost. The system has a limited number of units that can be generated in total and no mechanism to replace the lost units. Why is this not a long term problem for bitcoin?

I love how everyone responding to you seems to think that this is fine because you can just continue dividing the currency, as if the problem is a technical one, and seem to be ignoring or unaware of the actual problem:

Constant deflation is HORRIBLE for any economic system. By design it rewards early capital holders and punishes you for needing to make any transaction. It disincentivizes doing anything. You are always better off not spending money. This may sound good to idiots who just like "line goes up", but that makes normal people not use that system if they have the option.

Bitcoin, by design either on purpose or through negligence and a lack of basic economic knowledge can only ever reward the original whales and harm normal users of the system. Hoarding is the only rational position. That's what crypto proponents push for, because they are already bought in and want to reap the rewards. It's always hilarious and infuriating when they claim this system is more equal, more distributed, or more egalitarian than any other.

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#54
Trying to rent 51% of Bitcoin mining capacity in the short term would mean that major Bitcoin miners would have to be set up for remote short-term rental. Are they?

A bigger threat is collusion by the top Bitcoin mining companies. At one time, that was five guys in China. There was a picture of them together at a conference. Not sure what the situation is now.

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#55
> The cost of a 51% attack drops dramatically if you can rent the necessary hardware rather than buy it. Bitcoin mining hardware is available for rent. Would carrying out a 51% attack on rented hardware be possible? Would it be practical? A back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that the answer to both of these questions is "yes", indeed, that it might be even worse than possible and practical, it might even be profitable.

If it was possible (let alone practical, let alone profitable), it would've happened by now. The article acknowledges this, but doesn't quite grasp on why - that being that the rewards and difficulty are not static. By the time one's able to rent 30,000 of the article's proposed 3.3GH/s miners, the number of hashes required to win a block would be accordingly higher.

Had this article been written a decade ago, it would've likely proposed a hash rate that's readily feasible today - and it would still be dwarfed by the increase in difficulty.

> Bitcoin can be inflated through chain splits and also by policy.

Chain splits do not inflate Bitcoin. They inflate the supply of cryptocurrencies overall, but there is precisely one Bitcoin, that being the "one true chain". Bitcoin Cash is not Bitcoin, and the chain split that produced the former did not impact the latter in the slightest; they are entirely separate currencies, and always will be.

As for "by policy", it's possible in the sense that a camel passing through the eye of a needle is possible: a lot of work, and the camel would in all likelihood cease to exist as such. Such a policy change would itself result in a split chain, and it's entirely possible/probable that the unaltered chain would continue on its merry way. In other words: the chain with the altered policy would not be Bitcoin (at least not without the global network of miners and nodes agreeing to it), for the same reason that Bitcoin Cash is not Bitcoin.

> I'll just point out that irreversibility is no panacea. If it were, it would be universally adopted as the de facto standard.

It was the de facto standard for nearly the entire history of the very concept of currency. Cash transactions are already irreversible, and legal systems have managed fine with that fact for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

Likewise:

> In particular, if you lose your keys, or entrust them to a third party who decides to defect, then you have no recourse.

If you lose your cash, or entrust it to a third party who decides to defect, then you have no recourse.

> In fact, it is arguable that the rise of bitcoin was the catalyst that birthed ransomware as a global industry. A thief can now steal your money with impunity from the comfort of their own living room.

Theives have been able to do that with gift cards, wire transfers, check fraud, and countless other non-cryptocurrency media of exchange for about as long as telephones have existed. Bitcoin being the catalyst of nefarious acts long predating it is certainly "arguable", but even Elastigirl would pull a muscle or two in doing so.

> I think the main value of Bitcoin in the long run will be as a store of value, comparable to precious metals but easier to move around.

I agree with this. Between Lightning and the umpteen million cryptocurrencies iterating on Bitcoin's design, I don't think Bitcoin needs to be the currency of choice for day-to-day transactions, but rather for moving large sums of money around and storing it relatively securely (in the technical and valuation senses).

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#56

The consequences of a 51% attack are greatly overstated. A 51% attacker can prevent new transactions from confirming, and roll back recent transactions. They can't roll back transactions that happened (roughly) longer ago than the sustained duration of the attack. They can't mint extra coins, or double-spend arbitrarily old transactions. Under 51% conditions, you need to be more careful about accepting recently-confi…

Just the possibility of 51% attacks (if they occur 'occasionally') means people have to wait longer til they can consider transactions settled. Do they need to wait 4 hours instead of 1? 1 day? 3 days? 2 weeks? Whatever it is, it's materially significant. What does bitcoin do well now? What does it do better than other networks?

[deleted]

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#57
post #30

misses out on the single biggest threat to BTC Western governments simply outlaw its use and ownership without the USD, there really isn't even a USA, Western governments live and die by their fiat currencies outlawing it would not be that hard, confiscate all Coinbase assets would be an easy first step

Outlawing Bitcoin assumes quite some things.

1. The governments are competent and could do outlaw it - The outlawing of guns, drugs, alcohol, tax evasion seems to have had the opposite effect. 2. For all of the flaws of western governments, they are still within some kinda laws. Coinbase is a public US based company. They are entangled with pension funds, hedge funds, rich people. I am sure they would fight against this 3. This also assumes people follow the law. In general, people follow the law but when they see their banks implode, prices going like crazy, they lose their job... Well then they might not. 4. This also assumes the current system could survive. If you look at the math you'll see that there are not enough currency to pay of the debt. It is increasingly more levered system that is breaking apart.

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#58
post #54

Trying to rent 51% of Bitcoin mining capacity in the short term would mean that major Bitcoin miners would have to be set up for remote short-term rental. Are they? A bigger threat is collusion by the top Bitcoin mining companies. At one time, that was five guys in China. There was a picture of them together at a conference. Not sure what the situation is now.

> Trying to rent 51% of Bitcoin mining capacity in the short term would mean that major Bitcoin miners would have to be set up for remote short-term rental. Are they?

They just need to point their hashrate at a pool which enables rental. Nicehash is a prime example.

See also: https://www.crypto51.app/

> Not sure what the situation is now.

It is a pool based in the US. https://miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin

Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#59
post #21

Something I've always considered a curious decision about Bitcoin is the decision for halvings to occur as discrete events rather than as an exponential decay occurring on each block. Having them be discrete events is probably easier for someone to verify by eyeball, I guess, but it has the disadvantage that it creates moments in time where some large portion of the hardware in the market can suddenly no longer mine…

This is the only argument I have found against Bitcoin that have substance. I can see this as a problem, but so far there have always been enough miners that was profitable. One day that might not be true though - hopefully it wont. One reason for the halving cycle could be the way it kinda shocks the price and that makes people speculate and talk about Bitcoin like crazy. This is the perfect way to have a wrecking b…

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Re: A systematic critique of Bitcoin's value proposition

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin's value does come from the community and authority of the chain Agree it isn’t a dig. But it’s a refutation of a common argument in favour of crypto, namely, that it’s protected by math, not custom.

What's protected by math is the custody of the coins. The system is a delicate balancing act of incentives, math and social consensus. It's common among detractors to want to flippantly dismiss it as "only having value because of shared belief." That's not entirely accurate. All of the components are necessary to give Bitcoin its interesting properties which allow it to function as the first currency not managed by c…

But there has been changes to the way bitcoin works, and even forks because of it, eg bitcoin cash.

Now, irrelevant of what you think of those, the community can, and has changed the way Bitcoin works.

And, as such, it can also change what math it uses, if it so wishes. So the math ultimately depends on the community.

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