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New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

independent.co.uk

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Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#181

Post by SigmundA »

nonethewiser wrote: post #139
WJW wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God is not going to smite you for oath-breaking either though. What matters is that you keep your promise to (in this case) society, not whether you swear it on any book in particular. If the law requires the promise to be sworn over a book because the lawmakers at the time were religionists, you might as well choose a book you think represents your values.

The point is there is a belief in a consequence for lying to God. Whether or not there is an actual consequence is irrelevant. Furthermore, you can’t prove what happens after you die. I mean you may very well be right, but it’s just your personal belief.

Based on my interpretation of the Pale Blue Dot someone swearing to it would most likely be trying to convey a belief in consequences that occur regardless of the existence of a supreme being.

That is a belief in personal responsibility not motivated by fear of punishment by a supreme being.

This quote from Sagan convey's that meaning among others IMO:

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

Also see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o...

Where fear of gods punishement would be at the lowest level.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#182

Post by gowld »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #113
rbanffy wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I graduated as an Engineer, I swore an oath. I still remember one value that gets tested from time to time is to remember my work is for the betterment of the human condition, not only the perfection of machines. This has guided me through some difficult choices.

It would be nice if all schools did this, but I suspect that doing so, would render the oath almost meaningless.

The point is that the oath is for the benefit of the oathtaker, so extra useless oaths don't hurt.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#183

Post by phonescreen_man »

jacquesm wrote: post #85
williamtrask wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're referring to is society's attempt to re-build itself based on rationality and individualism as a replacement to political and religious institutions. A canonical response to your point would be that we're seeking to build a society where the rational action would be for the head of NASA further the aims of NASA. This follows from an ideology set out by Ayn Rand. There are a collection of documentaries by…

> This follows from an ideology set out by Ayn Rand. How does that follow? Ayn Rand did not create any ideology worth mentioning in this context.

I followed it, I read some of Ayn Rands books a long time ago and thought there was a lot of ideological thought that has context in this discussion. Individual responsibility vs crowd think - taking the oath on a Carl Sagan book rather than the Bible certainly seems to me an act of individual responsibility

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#184

Post by gowld »

nonethewiser wrote: post #136
autoexec wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you were to go against your duty as the head of NASA, Carl Sagan isn't going to rise from the grave and smite you for your transgression. It's like swearing something 'on your mother's grave'. That's not something done because zombie mothers will rise up to enforce anything. It's supposed to signify that you hold great reverence for your mother and that your conviction is as strong as that respect. Swearing on t…

> It's like swearing something 'on your mother's grave'. But they don’t swear people in over their mothers grave. If they did I hope everyone would agree that it’s meaningless, unless that person actually believed in some power of his dead mother.

I could give you my word as a Spaniard?

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#185

Post by gowld »

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #118
jen729w wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you do so with your hand over a representation of who will witness and judge you for that The premise is flawed. I don’t believe that there is any being who ‘will witness and judge me’. That is, other than my peers. Who are not supernatural. My using a Sagan book is therefore nothing more than symbolism: here’s who I am. Here’s what I represent. If you see this and think, ‘hell yeah!’, then you are in the cohort wh…

For some reason this seems really hard for people to accept: That religious people actually think there are consequences for their choices, even if no human being ever knows.

"Religious" people love using that to trick religious people.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#186

Post by gowld »

nonethewiser wrote: post #148
konschubert wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't believe in God, there is no difference between the Bible and any other book. You then choose whatever you value.

But do believe that the book you value will hold you accountable for breaking the oath? That’s the point - that a non religious oath is emptier gesture because you don’t expect the thing you’re swearing on to hold you accountable. The point is not that she shouldn’t be able to swear on Sagans book. Or that it doesn’t have meaning to her. Just that there are inherently religious roots to these oaths and when you remov…

Antithesis: Turning it around, one could say that religious people are demonstrably either delusional or frauds, so their oaths mean nothing.

Synthesis: Oaths mean nothing to anyone but the oathtaker, and you can't magically wish someone into an unbreakable bond.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#187

Post by phonescreen_man »

seanhunter wrote: post #79
skissane wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditionally there is a distinction between an oath and an affirmation Swearing an oath was a religious ritual – a solemn promise made invoking the name of the deity, with the implication that any violation of the promise would be risking divine judgement, quite apart from whatever earthly consequences might follow (e.g. criminal prosecution for perjury) Then along came the Quakers, who objected to oaths on religiou…

This oath vs affirmation distinction is made clear in the UK for sure. For example when I became a British citizen I was given the option of swearing allegiance to the queen or making a "solemn affirmation" of the same. The only difference being a slight difference of wording. Weirdly I still remember the wording even though it was more than 30 years ago and I only heard it once just before I said it. > I, Sean Hunte…

And she’s buying a stairway to heaven…

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#188

Post by courseofaction »

ammojamo wrote: post #34

Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what y…

https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill

It is utterly forbidden to kill in the bible.

200 years after Christ, the Roman army was "Christian".

Hmm.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#190

Post by ren_engineer »

tescocles wrote: post #9

Is there any actual strict requirement that you have to swear over a document of some kind? I'd have thought swearing over the bible is a stand-in for swearing "before God", and that God would ultimately be your reckoner should you break your oath. If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless it's something meaningful like the constitution of your country, as another…

>If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless?

the point is a childish rebellion against traditions the nation was founded on as a social signal to their in-group for validation. Might as well tip a fedora while giving the oath

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