Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#81

Post by rgmerk » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:47 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #31

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs. I think…

Back in the day, Dad ran a photocopier dealership.

He had a team of highly-paid salesmen (and they were pretty much all men) driving around the countryside convincing school principals and the like that they needed new photocopiers.

The profit margin on the machines was basically zero.

But the salespeople earned their keep, because every large photocopier sold also had a service contract that charged a fee for every copy made.

The game was up by the early 2000s when the stand-alone photocopier was replaced with networked laser printers, but while it lasted it paid for a lot of salespeople’s fancy cars, boats, and overseas holidays.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#82

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:55 AM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #77

lb1lf wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-This is very much my (anecdotal, but from several companies in the subsea business, ranging from huge multinationals to small fry almost mom-and-pop shops) experience, too: Service work is basically seen as a licence to print money. Contract negotiations for newbuilds are cutthroat, the most important parameter being price, price and price. Hence margins are as you'd expect. Except when it comes to service work, as…

I also worked with subsea companies for a long time, and can concur - they'd do anything to get new engineering and manufacturing contracts, then make the margins later on aftermarket service. It wasn't a secret either, people were quite open about it.

Oh, it is no secret, I believe everyone lives well with this approach - it is a tacit understanding, I think. Customers work hard to bring initial cost down as far as possible, even bringing up in contract negotiations that 'Hell, you'll make this back in service, anyway!' - seeing as when said is said, done is done, the equipment is installed and doing its thing - having downtime is so expensive that no matter what our service rates are, it is money well spent.

Anecdotally, I once was in Rio de Janeiro just wrapping up some service work on a vessel in the Guanabara bay (Fine-tuning a number of variable frequency drives had puzzled one of our FSEs no end, so I was called out from engineering to see if I could make it work out).

Anyway, a service request came in from a vessel also in the bay; rather than waiting for the home office to wake up and process it, I asked the crew on the ship I was departing from to simply zip me over to the vessel in question; less than fifteen minutes after they had reached out for help, I was on board and started looking into it.

They insisted on paying the $5,000-ish fee we usually charge to send someone from Norway to Brazil, despite my being just half a mile away - as they had expected it to be at least two days before someone could arrive; instead, they were back on-hire again in less than two _hours_.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#83

Post by michaelt » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:00 AM UTC

zamnos wrote: post #65

lb1lf wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true for most smaller farms - there simply is no way a small farm can afford the capital expenditure of someone who could be working day-to-day spending years in study, it still holds true that farmers by necessity are excellent jacks of all trades. You simply do not make enough money off of the farm to rent professional help whenever something goes wrong. Just one data point - when the clutch on our 19…

That only saved you $4,750 if your time is worth $0/hr. Assume it was two eight-hour days, times two people, or 32 hours of labor. If you make $149/hr, it's cheaper for you to pay the quoted cost. If you don't, it's cheaper for you to do it. Which it sounds like it was. But thinking you just "saved" $4,750 doing it yourself isn't the right way to look at it.

> If you make $149/hr, it's cheaper for you to pay the quoted cost.

If you're salaried at Google for 40 hours/week with no paid overtime and no side gigs allowed, the median value of your time is $149/hr but the marginal price is $0/hr because working an extra hour doesn't make you any extra money.

I suspect farming is similar - it's not like you can take that free hour, add 4 square feet to your field and produce $149 more wheat.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#84

Post by theluketaylor » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:01 AM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #63

heywhatupboys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I know HN likes to put farmers on a pedistal, and we should all appreciate the people that literally grow our food, the reality isn't that most farmers are "highly educated" in these things, but know barely enough to scrape by

While that is true for most smaller farms - there simply is no way a small farm can afford the capital expenditure of someone who could be working day-to-day spending years in study, it still holds true that farmers by necessity are excellent jacks of all trades. You simply do not make enough money off of the farm to rent professional help whenever something goes wrong. Just one data point - when the clutch on our 19…

Coincidently my grandfather was replacing a clutch in a Case tractor when I was at the family farm over Christmas. Little older (I believe from the 80s), but probably not that different since you mentioned splitting. The transmission forms part of the structure of the tractor, so replacing the clutch meant the tractor was literally in 2 pieces, each supported by block and tackle in the farm shop. It was odd seeing such a big machine split in half like that.

My grandfather spent his career working on heavy machinery for a government agency and then in retirement has been maintaining all the farm equipment for my uncle. In the summer I helped him replace the complex system of belts in a hay baler. He’s in his mid 80s and was crawling around inside the machine. My job was just to stand there and keep the belt from twisting.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#85

Post by Dennip » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:05 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #31

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs. I think…

its why they're spinning up the big bud again!

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/03/20/big-bud-worlds-large...

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#86

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:08 AM UTC

rgmerk wrote: post #81

rtpg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs. I think…

Back in the day, Dad ran a photocopier dealership. He had a team of highly-paid salesmen (and they were pretty much all men) driving around the countryside convincing school principals and the like that they needed new photocopiers. The profit margin on the machines was basically zero. But the salespeople earned their keep, because every large photocopier sold also had a service contract that charged a fee for every…

> But the salespeople earned their keep, because every large photocopier sold also had a service contract that charged a fee for every copy made.

And without the service contracts, schools are fucked when the printer breaks down. Like, here in Germany, a single copier can run through entire crates worth of paper in a day.

It's absolutely ridiculous how fossilized our education system has become. We should be using laptops and tablets loaded with e-books and digital worksheets. No one cares about handwriting anything outside of school any more.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#87

Post by javajosh » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 9:13 AM UTC

ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #80

This seems like a good step, but the piecemeal approach is aggravating. Are they going to pass a separate right-to-repair law for every industry and product category, one at a time? "Last year, they passed the first US Right to Repair bill since 2012, protecting Coloradans’ right to fix their own powered wheelchairs" This is absurd. They need to pass comprehensive right-to-repair legislation and then amend it as prob…

I agree. But the way to get a comprehensive solution is to understand the technology changes that have changed our world profoundly, and why current law is no longer sufficient.

To wit, humans have invented invisibility, and now we must deal with a wide range of surprising repurcussions of this technology.

Now, we don't have real invisibility, but we do have functional invisibility. Every chip, and and every piece of software, is invisible to the user. This is entirely novel and could not have been anticipated by the framers - who very much cared about innovation and invention, given that the patent system is described in the Constitution. But the invention of invisibility changes the calculus of product creation and distribution profoundly, to the point that it may require an Amendment to address fully. I suggest something along the lines of "If you sell an Invisibly Small Good, then you Must provide to the buyer a Microscope also".)

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#88

Post by octacat » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 10:35 AM UTC

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

Probably because they have agreement between these companies. They don't really need marketing once they sell their machines.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#89

Post by linuxftw » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 11:15 AM UTC

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

A tractor manufacturer's customers are the dealers, not the end users. Just like the auto industry, most of the margin of dealers is made in service and repairs.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#90

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 11:32 AM UTC

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

I guess it would also mean higher upfront price to make up for losses in servicing. And I guess farmers don't want that.

The current situation is market driven and I guess "repairs will be more expensive/planned obsolescence" is more engaging than a higher price.

And I think that's where a government has to intervene. Even if the situation is the one that suit manufacturers and customers (even if they don't admit it), it is not the best for the environment and collectivity in general, so regulation is in order.