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Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

laforge.gnumonks.org

181–190 of 267 posts

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#181
post #83

I took "the pragmatic UNIX way" about 15 years ago with email. It works. I've not had to change it and don't feel compelled to bother changing it. I host my own mail server. It's not hard regardless of the platform you use. I use debian+postfix+mutt as it pretty much works out of the box. I've changed perhaps two lines of postfix configuration (to set up maildir) and added a couple of lines to my muttrc to pick up ma…

"Self respecting hackers don't use Gmail and Co."

Are you not self-respecting? Just a few days ago, you said:

"I've got offline gmail if i want."

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3533625

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#182
post #129
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to, but unless it is located in Iran, NK or other US-unfriendly place, US govt can always pressure the local govt to pressure the local business to turn things over. I wouldn't, for example, count on countries like Switzerland, US is already getting to its banks to turn over US accounts, and is supposed to be one of the most independent and un-influenced countries. With the current legislation trend,…

> US govt can always pressure the local govt That depends. In some places, the privacy laws are better than in the US. You would just have to choose wisely.

> In some places, the privacy laws are better than in the US.

That's nice, you still believe that the laws on file actually govern how the country is run.

Bug if you follow e.g. how the spanish SOPA-like was passed, you realize it's all a facade.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#183
post #145
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could always mooch off of Gmail's spam filtering... Use SpamAssassin in conjunction with a gmail account that is only used as an attempt to attract as much spam as possible. Then just download the spam folder over IMAP and use it to teach SpamAssassin...

Respectfully, no. The primary issue in spam filtering is not that we don't have training corpora, it's that spammers are very efficient at finding holes in your system. One example is when the Hotmail team first enabled keyword filtering. When the spammers found out experimentally, they began injecting HTML comment tags into high-weighted words like "free", breaking the model. When the Hotmail team took steps to comb…

I'm not saying it's perfect. Obviously having a network effect allows you to do things like flag messages that are exact duplicates over multiple sent-from and sent-to addresses.

I've seen this happen where 1 or 2 messages hit my inbox, but the next 20 or so are in my spam folder.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#184
post #177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree on most points... 1. It takes a few hours to set up, sure, but it isn't difficult – setting up a mail server on a *nix box isn't exactly uncharted territory, every possible aspect of it is documented to death on the web. And once it's up and running it takes practically no effort to maintain. Yes, even with spam filtering that keeps my inbox spam free, despite my address having been used in several public…

And in my experience, OP has it right. 1. Setting up the mail server is not the issue. It's the ongoing maintenance to ensure close to 100% uptime so you don't lose any mail. Having worked as a sysadmin maintaining linux boxes for several companies, mail server maintenance accounted for the vast majority of the hours we spent working on servers. This doesn't even account for the hardware upkeep to keep RAID sets in g…

I do value my own time, and I'll say it again – post setup, I really spend no appreciable time keeping my mail server running. My VPS provider handles all hardware issues (with zero downtime in the last two years), backups consist of a nightly cron job and require no manual intervention, and the last time I touched my Postfix configuration was over a year ago.

"Rolling my own filtering" consists of placing a single mailbox_command line in the Postfix configuration file, it hardly qualifies as a time sink. Writing mail filters for procmail takes no more time than doing so in Gmail, the difference is that the former lets you write much more expressive and fine-grained rules.

And yes, SpamAssassin does have a built-in learning Bayesian classifier. Which I previously used to learn from anything that I manually classified as spam, but these days I don't even get any spam to invoke it on. See sa-learn(1) for details.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you pay for this? For the last 3 years I've been creating a platform for this kind of servers for a small spanish ISP. It has grown to 15 Openvz hosts. A rails app connects to the host to create the virtual machine. Centos is installed and configured with puppet. A rails app is installed in every server and used to configure the accounts, domains, etc. Postfix, Cyrus, IMAPS, SMTPS, POP3S, HTTPS, Sieve for filte…

Why pay when you can get it from Gmail? :)

What happens when Google suspends your account and you loose all your email, docs, etc? Your online identity (you no longer have your main email address) gone?

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is the polar opposite. I have to rely on a native client to search because GMail search is so bad. It hasn't been that fast for a while -- waiting 30+s for a search is pretty routine nowadays. But worse, it's never really handled stemming well -- it has to be an exact word match, even for singular vs plural. And the number of false positives I get usually doesn't even make it worthwhile. I had resorted…

30s searches....I've gotta ask, how many gigabytes of email do you have? I've got about 3 and mine come back in less than a second.

I have almost 2.5 GB's and also have zero problems with GMail's default search. Comes back in less than a second.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#188
Because it's the best email system available for most people. If you value productivity and usability the most, Gmail is the way to go. It's that simple.

Gmail is the only email system that I can tolerate. It actually makes using email borderline fun, whereas even something like Exchange is a nightmare. It works great with various applications, smartphones and has by far the best Web interface around. It handles spam well and allows me to easy filter messages (and have those filters work across devices).

For most of us, email is a tool that helps us get work done and communicate with family and friends. Rolling our own solutions is not worth the extra time, headaches and lost usability.

Google doesn't care about our data individually. They make money in anonymized, aggregate data. That's why I don't care that they are making money off of my data, because it's not my data that they care about. It's our data that they really care about.

And while I'd prefer if my email didn't fall into the hands of the US government, I don't actually have anything that I care that they see in it. It's more principle than anything else. And, as a US citizen, if I rolled my own solution, I don't think it would be any safer in my hands than Google's when it comes to warrants.

I do have real fears. My real fears with email are in using a system that isn't usable, isn't reliable and has data integrity issues. At the end of the day, Google's servers and technical know-how surpasses mine, and I feel that my email is safer and less likely to be lost due to hardware failure in their hands than in mine.

It really depends on what you value. If my email information was really sensitive, I would probably care more. If I were a company that valued sensitivity a lot, I might not use Gmail. Certainly if the work you do or the industry you are in needs the utmost privacy, you should look into the most secure option as possible.

But as an individual, Gmail is as good as it gets for me.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#189
post #177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree on most points... 1. It takes a few hours to set up, sure, but it isn't difficult – setting up a mail server on a *nix box isn't exactly uncharted territory, every possible aspect of it is documented to death on the web. And once it's up and running it takes practically no effort to maintain. Yes, even with spam filtering that keeps my inbox spam free, despite my address having been used in several public…

And in my experience, OP has it right. 1. Setting up the mail server is not the issue. It's the ongoing maintenance to ensure close to 100% uptime so you don't lose any mail. Having worked as a sysadmin maintaining linux boxes for several companies, mail server maintenance accounted for the vast majority of the hours we spent working on servers. This doesn't even account for the hardware upkeep to keep RAID sets in g…

I'm not sure where you're spending time on maintenance. I set up my current mail server 3.5 years ago (postfix, spamassassin, dovecot, sieve, roundcube) and barely ever touch it -- the only maintenance required is the very rare security update.

I use tarsnap for backups, so no tapes required.

I don't love running my own mail server, but as a hacker, I don't see that any of the alternatives are better.

Re: Why do self-respecting hackers use Gmail & Co?

#190
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really easy to install SpamAssassin and point your MTA at it. Even the default configuration is highly effective.

It's still a service which you have to maintain and there's constant config & upgrading required since some spammers are smart enough to test their messages with it first. I've run SA professionally for modest (low hundreds) of users. It works reasonably well but it's a job and I'm not paid to do it personally.

SpamAssasin will auto-update its rules if properly configured. I have touched my SA install in years.
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