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Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

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Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#131

Post by jedberg »

throwaway384jd wrote: post #95

Staff engineer here, I can confirm the market is brutal. Readers, if you are wondering how to help: please read my résumé before interviews, and ideally, look at my github. I’ve been rejected for roles because I did not mention something in the interview, even though it is clearly on my résumé. Also please take cultural differences into account. I got a rejection because during the architectural interview, I phrased…

> I’ve been rejected for roles because I did not mention something in the interview, even though it is clearly on my résumé.

That's gonna happen unfortunately. People don't read resumes closely. If you think it's important, make sure to mention it during the interview. Unfortunately you have to learn to talk like a politician and answer the question you want to answer instead of the one they asked, while still making them feel like you answered their questions.

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#132

Post by Volundr »

It's brutal. I've been looking since January and only just found a new role. Usually finding a new job has just been setting my LinkedIn status to open to work, tapping a few people in my network and sitting back and waiting for the offers. It's rarely taken more than a month.

January and February frankly scared me. Aggressively looking as opposed to my usual passive approach and I was getting nothing back. Just silence. I was refereed to a position I was a perfect fit in terms of background for by a previous colleague, and got no reply. They asking internally weren't able to find out anything either. No one's been hired and the listing is still up.

March things finally started gaining some traction and I was finally able to land a new position. I actually had two offers, one I frankly didn't want and was feeling like I'd have to do anyway given I had no other leads, and a couple days later one I was pretty excited about.

So there is hope. I'd say things are visibly improving, but I expect it to suck for awhile. I think I may be a little lucky in that my primary skill-sets are a little niche, so while there are less jobs out there that are a match, it also means I'm competing with 10s (or less) instead of 100s that are a strong match. So for the average Java/.NET/React dev I expect it's harder to stand out.

One thing I'd note since you mentioned Apple/Facebook, I ended up taking a ~25% pay-cut with this search, and I wasn't making anything like a FAANG salary. I don't know what your targetting, but if your providing a range when submitting applications, you might want to research salaries for the company on sites like Glassdoor and consider if you need to set your sights lower.

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#133

Post by nyarlathotep_ »

uncletammy wrote: post #68
oh_sigh wrote: post #9

150 resumes sounds like you're just shotgunning them out there willy nilly. Maybe take a more nuanced approach and work your network a little bit. Your network could even just be people you've worked with in the past who respect you and enjoyed working with you, doesn't need to be people you actively keep up with.

It's hard to keep morale up after spending multiple hours composing a few thoughtful, "good fit" applications, just to be auto-rejected immediately upon submission without them even being seen by a human. I don't even bother anymore unless I have someone on the other end who's willing to usher my application straight to a hiring manager.

Yeah tailoring your resume is an exercise in futility when the most common outcome is either no response or an auto reject email.

Changing a few keywords or whatever is one thing, but trying to go bullet-point accuracy for the listing is a total waste of time when 95% of the time the resume is never viewed by a human.

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#134

Post by Volundr »

1differential wrote: post #108
irrational wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say low ball, do you mean compared to what FAANG companies pay (paid?) or do you mean compared to what non-tech Fortune 500 companies pay?

non-FAANG - I'm familiar with Disney's salary levels, and would say I'm getting offers at a level below what I would expect (or 40k-60k below on base).

Looking up Disney salaries, I'd say outside of the main tech hubs ~$40-$60k less is about what I'd expect.

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#135

Post by Volundr »

throwaway5959 wrote: post #121
__float wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you get more senior, it takes time to understand your sibling teams, the business itself, etc. If it takes 6+ months just to get "up to speed", are you really having much impact when you leave 6 months later?

I’m a principal software engineer. If it takes me more than a month to get up to speed with an organization (I usually work with small-mid sized companies), I consider that a failure. Six months to first contribution is insane.

First contribution is not the same as up-to-speed. I'll also note that a manager often needs a broader view of the company than an engineer, though at principal level I'd expect the gap to be less (but it isn't always).

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#136

Post by sneed_chucker »

gigatexal wrote: post #75
gigatexal wrote: post #72

Have you considered moving abroad? I’m a mediocre engineer compared to the rockstars in my field and I regularly get interviews at startups, and medium to large companies here in Germany. I feel as though the jobs are for me to take or the interviews are for me to fail. Honestly think about it. I do interviews for the company I work for (though I’m a senior data engineer I really like being people facing and meeting…

*forgot to add context: I’m an American living in Germany for the last 5 years.

How did you handle your initial relocation?

I'm an American with German citizenship and a decent (~C1) grasp of the language and I toy with the idea of moving there from time to time.

But it seems like first you need to get a company that's willing to hire you and wait for you to relocate before starting, no?

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#137

Post by 908B64B197 »

moosedev wrote: post #6

Not just you. I would guess, optimistically, I’m averaging a 5% conversion rate of applications to recruiter chats/“stage 0 interviews”. That is, ~95% of applications yield silence or a generic email rejection without any human contact. ~15 YOE, FAANG experience, usually only applying to roles I feel I’m at least a halfway good fit for (i.e. not a complete scattergun approach). I’m (financially) fine for now, which i…

> FAANG experience

From a recruiter's perspective, this can be a red flag because they know how much you are worth, and the fact that you worked successfully there means you can probably return. So they might not want to hire you thinking "this guy can leave us for Meta/Google any day".

> ETA: A few of the recruiters I have talked with have mentioned that they’re getting hundreds of applications within hours of a posting going live. So there is likely a “lost in volume” effect as another commenter mentioned.

The real question is what's the signal to noise ratio?

Getting 500 resume for a job posting is not really a new thing for any in-demand, remote friendly company in the bay area. From experience, most applicants on these postings are underqualified (it's free to apply).

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#138

Post by recfab »

I've been searching for about 2 months (laid off early February), and I've not had a lot of luck.

Lots of recruiter calls. Several phone screens. A handful of post-phone-screen Round 1 interviews, but no Round 2. One company reached out to me, rejected me after round 1, but put me on their marketing email distro list.

I did have a phone screen yesterday that I think went well. (For that position, an internal recruiter reached out because they saw my post in "Ask HN: Who wants to be hired (April 2023)"). I have two more scheduled for tomorrow. That makes this a relatively busy week.

My last job I was at for nearly 10 years, so I can't compare this experience to the last few years, but it certainly _feels_ brutal.

This week, I'm feeling positive, but in general, I've been worried. I have some severance left and some savings (but not as much as I should). I am also the sole income for my family.

Re: Ask HN: Is the job market brutal? or is it just me?

#139

Post by fatnoah »

moosedev wrote: post #6

Not just you. I would guess, optimistically, I’m averaging a 5% conversion rate of applications to recruiter chats/“stage 0 interviews”. That is, ~95% of applications yield silence or a generic email rejection without any human contact. ~15 YOE, FAANG experience, usually only applying to roles I feel I’m at least a halfway good fit for (i.e. not a complete scattergun approach). I’m (financially) fine for now, which i…

I went through the process in the fall (starting about a month before being laid off, as it turns out) with almost 25 YOE. My background includes significant startup experience at all levels, plus FAANG and some bigger companies. It took me about 3 months to find a role.

The process itself was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before. I've always been very targeted in applications, so prior to this the largest number of jobs I applied to in a job search was 5, and the grand total of job applications to date that didn't result in a phone screen was 2 or 3.

This time around, I was looking for a management gig, and sent about 54 applications. Due to a combination of being very targeted and being a little early in the layoff cycle (early fall last year), I managed to get about 10 cases of actually talking to a recruiter, 4 speaking with the hiring manager, 2 going through the full process, and 1 offer. I did also have another 10 recruiter conversations through my own network of recruiters and inbound LinkedIn requests.

A not-so-fun fact is that all but one large-company recruiter I talked this has since been laid off. One of those companies laid off the first recruiter I was talking to, and then laid off the second a couple weeks later.

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